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I need to say this. Stockholm Syndrome is one of the great romance plot devices, but it is...

I Thot You Was a Toad August 17, 2017 5:42 pm

I need to say this. Stockholm Syndrome is one of the great romance plot devices, but it isn't real, just like rape in romance literature isn't real. It's bunkum.

The American Psychiatric Association does not list Stockholm Syndrome amongst its pathologies and disorders. It does not recognize the syndrome. This is for sound reasons. It isn't because the evidence was not examined. It was amply scrutinized. The rejection was based on that evidence was incomplete, incorrect (distorted) and ultimately used to harm, rather than support, victims and survivors of violence.

So, if you want to read stories about frail, helpless Cinderellas and Cinderfellas who fall in love with their abusive Gonad-Scratchers, go ahead! Scratch that itch all you like. Get off in your fantasies, but don't go around saying Stockholm Syndrome, like it comes across in fiction, is anything like what victims of violence experience.

Responses
    Cetagandane August 18, 2017 12:09 am

    I don't really know where you're going with this. Trying to debate (moreover you seem pissed?) in a yaoi website is pretty much useless.
    As wtf said, of course it isn't listed in the DSM, well... because it's not a disorder, it's a subtype of traumatic bonding.

    I Thot You Was a Toad August 18, 2017 4:28 am
    I don't really know where you're going with this. Trying to debate (moreover you seem pissed?) in a yaoi website is pretty much useless.As wtf said, of course it isn't listed in the DSM, well... because it's no... Cetagandane

    Nope. It's about setting the record straight. Too many readers of yaoi claim "Stockholm Syndrome" for the romantic trope of ukes falling for abusive semes, as though the traumatic bonding that you describe (less actual bonding so much as calculated risk assessment and management tactics under the covert guise of friendship and intimacy) is the same thing.

    Also, it wasn't listed in the DSM because Berjerot's thesis has been largely invalidated in subsequent studies. For one thing, he didn't bother to interview the subjects of his investigation, in particular the survivors of the Normalmstorg event and Kristen Enmark. When they finally told their side of the story, it was very clear that their actions were driven by very different motivations, fears of incompetence and endangerment by the police, not romantic feelings at all. Their emotional states and somatic responses more closely align to PTSD.

    I Thot You Was a Toad August 18, 2017 4:45 am
    I don't really know where you're going with this. Trying to debate (moreover you seem pissed?) in a yaoi website is pretty much useless.As wtf said, of course it isn't listed in the DSM, well... because it's no... Cetagandane

    Also, not pissed, but definitely experiencing an urgency to stop the correlation of romantic tropes too closely to a syndrome which has been used to pathologize behaviour of survivors of violence, one which makes them appear crazy for, either, reacting to immediate or recent trauma, or "playing for an end game" with their best chances at survival with the best information, experience and resources they have at their disposal. The fact that yaoi is fiction matters.

    Slyboots August 18, 2017 5:04 am
    Nope. It's about setting the record straight. Too many readers of yaoi claim "Stockholm Syndrome" for the romantic trope of ukes falling for abusive semes, as though the traumatic bonding that you describe (les... I Thot You Was a Toad

    I feel the same way. In the school where I work, there have been rare incidents of child abuse. Children protect their parents because they don't know anything else, and they believe they would literally die if they don't. The abuser is better than what a child imagines as the alternative, but children are shattered in the process.

    I Thot You Was a Toad August 18, 2017 5:23 am
    I feel the same way. In the school where I work, there have been rare incidents of child abuse. Children protect their parents because they don't know anything else, and they believe they would literally die if... Slyboots

    Most school systems have intervention procedures in place with trained professional to deal with suspected cases of abuse and neglect in such a way that children are not traumatized further. If it is necessary to remove children, they will do so.

    I'm trying to parse your last sentence since you surely don't believe that children should remain in harm's way (which is what it almost sounds like you've written.) Do you mean that they protect their abusers because they can't imagine anything better, and that this experience tears them apart? (I'm assuming that's what you mean.)

    Cetagandane August 18, 2017 11:18 am
    Nope. It's about setting the record straight. Too many readers of yaoi claim "Stockholm Syndrome" for the romantic trope of ukes falling for abusive semes, as though the traumatic bonding that you describe (les... I Thot You Was a Toad

    I don't really get what you're saying 'nope' to, since you didn't contradict me; don't create a straw man please.
    I agree w/ you; so many pseudo psychologists tried to make a thesis about Stockholm syndrome (among many others subjects), without verifying the facts beforehand, because they knew the hype would bring them readers. I already acknowledged it isn't a disorder. But inappropriate generalization wont change the fact that there are real-life occurrences:
    https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4493 (both Brian Andrew Dunning and Dr. Steven Novella are skeptics than I learned to trust through the years)
    And of course it can lead to PTSD in extreme cases.

    Regarding the yaois readers... well I do hope most of us know how to separate fiction from reality.

    I Thot You Was a Toad August 18, 2017 3:56 pm
    I don't really get what you're saying 'nope' to, since you didn't contradict me; don't create a straw man please.I agree w/ you; so many pseudo psychologists tried to make a thesis about Stockholm syndrome (amo... Cetagandane

    I was noping the "you sound pissed?" question.

    In terms of your final remark about hoping that most yaoi readers know how to separate fiction from reality, the only reason I brought it up in the first place is to address that problem. There must've been a run of manga with abusive lover themed stories, because there has certainly been a run of comments from readers who---while they do not necessarily confuse all yaoi with real life---are certainly confused about Stockholm Syndrome and have certainly correlated the yaoi misrepresentations with real life occurrences.
    It is exactly this misrepresentation which readers are taking away, time and again: "This really happens", "We learned about this in school", "This is real" ... I mean, for goodness sake! Sure, I have a tendency, when frustrated, to cry out, "Stop it!" Hence, the absolutisms in my initial comment.

    Now, you agree that the syndrome is not a disorder, but that is certainly how it is represented in yaoi (as manifesting outright bipolar or schizophrenic). As your author pointed out, it is also not a valid medical subject, and, although I like Skeptoid magazine and read up on evolutionary psychology, that particular angle is inadequate. This, especially since the author seems to feel it sufficiently handles the issue of the syndrome's lack of inclusion in the DSM. I defer to peer-reviewed publications with a broader approach to mental health and society, also available online [Wade, et al; some 90 other publications], because of Berjerot's incomplete research and the way his evidence is distorted to embed systemic misogyny. I defer to them because the consequences of this distortion, in terms of continued harm to people who have already been badly hurt, are very difficult to unstitch and heal. The entire comment thread was to intended to spark some conversation about a much more complex set of behaviours than yaoi tends to present.

    Cetagandane August 18, 2017 6:49 pm
    I was noping the "you sound pissed?" question. In terms of your final remark about hoping that most yaoi readers know how to separate fiction from reality, the only reason I brought it up in the first place is ... I Thot You Was a Toad

    There's nothing I could disagree with in you answer, and I haven't read enough yaoi to know about the PTSDs described. Thanks for clarifying my misunderstanding of your previous post, and for your sources.

    Cetagandane August 18, 2017 7:13 pm
    I was noping the "you sound pissed?" question. In terms of your final remark about hoping that most yaoi readers know how to separate fiction from reality, the only reason I brought it up in the first place is ... I Thot You Was a Toad

    *clearing

    Slyboots August 23, 2017 2:52 am

    I meant that children lie for their abusive family members because they are too scared to think of life without them.