You do realize that the English editors could have done that on purpose, removing all traces of rape to be more culture excepted . . . right??
You do realize that if it was rape he wouldn't have been moaning during it and being a smartass after right?
So if victims ever felt more than pure pain & humilitation, it isn't rape? Just because Yaoi has lots of it (with extremely implausible outcomes) and remains a pleasure to read doesn't mitigate the deed itself. In fact, part of the enjoyment stems from the non-consensual nature of the plot. Denying simply means you believe in that most cliched and preposterous phrase: "It's not rape if she asked for/enjoyed it".
You know, he could have said: "I love you Takayama, you're my most precious". But still it would have been rape, because it was forced!
Yeah, sometimes the victims in yaoi take it very well and overcome it easily and rape is reduced to a way of saying "I like you", "I desire you" or to a way of being romantic (?), but let's front it even if we like yaoi, rape is WRONG.
Also, I agree with @L77059.
Yet again this is a FAN translation and I own the actual physical copy of the manga. In the actual copy the translation is very DIFFERENT. I don't see why you want to continue to argue when you haven't read that licensed (English) manga.
I can get your point about Takayama accepting Ishikawa's forceful act, after reading lore's review in Amazon about this manga (by the way, is it you?).
But I must say that she shows that there could be misunderstandings about the scene: is it or is it not non-con sex? She thinks it's consensual: "*I* think the taken man allowed the sex to happen because he had been so fascinated by the other man before".
Nevertheless, there are also 2 reviews that say: "it's rape, but it's a good reading".
So maybe it’s like lore puts it: there are many gray areas in BL about this topic.
The reason why I decided to talk was because the “it’s not rape” argument seemed simplified to the text/translation, while the act itself draws a forced sex in the beginning. Act that some can understand as rape and others can see it as an opportunity for the mature uke to have a good time with the person he’s interested with.
After this discussion, I’m more inclined to the latter. Although, I still think what Ishikawa did was wrong. Remember kids, stay away from brutes and rapists!
So thanks for your topic and reply, they made me think more about that scene ;)
Not my review. My real name posts on Amazon when I review since I only put reviews as a verified purchaser. I haven't reviewed this manga on there either. I look at both the actions and words in manga. Context is important. Takayama is caught by surprise and at first he seems to resist just a bit but then gives in because it's someone he's always had an interest in. Seeing that side of Ishikawa he ends up becoming aroused and going along with it when he would have punched him had he been any other guy. Takayama isn't a pushover by far.
I actually trust the fan translation to be more literal-- but I think the commercial translation is probably more accurate. It's amazing how differently we all read this scene. I see a classic screw-ball comedy where the lovers bicker and challenge each other-- with tons of mutual respect, but lots of dishonesty about feelings. Then the next reader sees violence and disrespect. We obviously bring a lot of ourselves to the text, but can we both be right? We really can't.
I agree with you on how it comes across. He liked him before they had sex but thought he would never have a chance so he treated him as his "eye candy". Some fan translations can be close but I'm part of a scan group and I can tell you that no translator is going to guarantee 100% accuracy. The exception to that is of course people working as professional translators.
Have you seen the raws of this manga? I'd be interested in a comparison of the original, the fan, and the commercial stories.
No unfortunately I don't own an original just the English release. I could ask around and have one of the translators in my group take a look but they'd be really uncomfortable. Most of our translators are guys and we are not a yaoi group lol.
heh, that sounds like fun to me (making guys sweat a little).
Well I get to correct a bunch of y'all whining about rape. I bought the volume on Amazon and it arrived today. The text is very different and Ishikawa actually tells Takayama to teach him after pushing him over. Takayama doesn't resist and doesn't ever say anything about rape. When Ishikawa says to loosen up instead Takayma says, "What do you expect with nothing to help?" Here is a picture from my copy of the manga to prove that http://prntscr.com/3d4jud