Actually, memorizing the strokes' order is tedious though there are rules and guidelines which govern this. This is totally optional though; I even doubt that Japanese language learners memorize them anyhow (=・ω・=), except for students who majored or are majoring in Japanese language study. I am glad that you can learn from videos; they're definitely going to be inserted into my curriculum in the future. I believe that looking up a character by its radical is handier than doing it by the SKIP method. As an utter beginner, I've totally relied on the SKIP method. It is very useful when you're looking at a scanned page and part of the kanji character is undecipherable; not to mention the blurriness of the furigana characters. In spite of that, I always manage to find the kanji in question, some way or the other, thanks to the SKIP method. However, this is going to be in the past now as I want to properly study the language first, then attempt to read Japanese text bit by bit. It is obvious that a systematic study of the language requires to learn and memorize all the kanjis' radicals. I hope that you're going to achieve fluency as time passes by; and perhaps when that point of time is reached we can have a conversation in Japanese. It is going to be difficult but yet achievable lol (づ￣ ³￣)づ
Oops. I forgot to hit the reply button before commenting so a new message post has been initiated. Sorry about that. (=・ω・=) 《Lilas》--❦--❀
It's fine :P
Ah, well I sure have no clue what to do with blurry kanjis sometimes lol. Sometimes I manage to guess and recognize a few radicals, but hey I'll try the SKIP for times where that doesn't work aha. For less blurry stuff, when it's on a picture and I can't copy it, sometimes I get lazy and use my cellphone to scan it aha. It came with the app Asahi Kanji. The bigger it is though the better it works.
I just went through the radicals before jumping into reading, that's all there is to it ╮(￣▽￣)╭
There was a study carried out among university students that showed that there was an average of two strokes missing for more complex kanjis. Imo it's pretty much an art. They have to learn the order however, because when you write quickly, your letters tend to get cursive right? Learning the stroke order diminishes that effect, and people can better read them. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's going to near unreadable if it's completely off.
And yes, it's achievable~. Not necessarily difficult, it depends on how impatient you get aha. Personally I'm fine if it's under 10 years, though that's not to discourage you, I'm just not that always actively into it.
It's fine :PAh, well I sure have no clue what to do with blurry kanjis sometimes lol. Sometimes I manage to guess and recognize a few radicals, but hey I'll try the SKIP for times where that doesn't work aha. F... Nnaze
I am really sorry for the late reply. I was so busy that I didn't have the time to visit this website until now. LOL those blurry kanjis are a pain in the neck. Sometimes I try all the tricks up my sleeve but still at least 20 to 30% of them remain unidentified inside of a scanned page. There is a website (it is more than one actually) where you can find a kanji by drawing it (jisho.org for example) but it takes a longer time to find the missing kanji if the stroke order isn't right. Handwritten kanji is another nightmare. Eleven days ago I stumbled upon a handwritten text inside a manga which lasted for several pages. I almost had a heart attack because some of the hiragana and katakana weren't clear; never mind the kanjis because they looked like noodles pinned on a wall. I've heard that before - the part about 10 years - It is possibly correct that this is the lapse of time needed to become a great scholar in Japanese studies but I am pretty sure that advanced reading and communication could be achieved in two years of persistent studying (=・ω・=) ありがとうございまつ (you're hard working so you get the formal treatment lol (=・ω・=) )
Sorry for barging in on you like that. However I remembered you because I read some of your posts last year, on learning Japanese. I've begun a self-study program myself. So what about you? Have you become able to read Japanese without an intermediary tool (such as Google translate or any similar gadget)? If yes, how long did it take you? Arigatô.
Oops, just remembered I hadn't replied because I was too busy at the time and then forgot (￣∇￣")
Depends on what you consider being able to read without an intermediary tool. I'd say I can understand half without it, and the other half I have to look for. But then again, there are still words I have to verify in English, and I would say I'm not so far from fluency. There will always be words you'll have to verify, there's always some obscure ones.
Mind you, I've taken a break from actively learning it. Other things took over my life in the last year. I will resume it as soon as possible however.
But if you need some tips for language learning:
1. As a general rule, we learn things better when they are related to our survival or our personal goals. Your brain will just pay attention to it better. So focus on language content that is relevant to you.
2. Use the new language as a tool to communicate from Day 1. That's the mistake people make all the time that makes it that someone trying to learn a language may not even achieve fluency 10 years later.
If you can't physically go in Japan, throw yourself into forums. Try exchanging with natives. That's what I did on this website 2 years ago, while I was half confident in my English, and my, I've improved A LOT. So much that I surprised myself being pretty comfortable with going through English job interviews!
3. So, don't focus too much on memorizing this and that word. Don't be afraid of going through a dictionary all the time at first while trying to communicate or read. Your brain will memorize it better, because you actually use it fro something practical. When you first understand the message, you will unconsciously acquire the language. Much, much quicker.
4. It's not about knowledge, especially for speaking. Someone in Japan can have A grades in English, drop in the USA, and find that they understand nothing. It's more like physiological training.
5. Be relaxed and curious. Don't stress whenever you don't understand something 100%. Don't focus on being perfect, it'll come without you realizing it. I've first learned English through video games, since French translations were not available were I live at the time, and later I was already able to read and understand. That's because I focused on understanding the information rather than focusing on learning English.
Also, if you're one of those like me who are visual learners, you may benefit from purchasing "The Easy Way to Learn 400 Practical Kanji". They basically explain how those 400 kanjis were come to be drawn the way they are today. So you can then begin to link the kanjis to pictures related to the meaning rather than trying to memorize a bunch of lines. I found that helped me have a basis, much, much quicker all of the sudden. I still remember most while it's been a year I haven't really touched Japanese much. Can't unsee it aha.
Oops, just remembered I hadn't replied because I was too busy at the time and then forgot (￣∇￣")Depends on what you consider being able to read without an intermediary tool. I'd say I can understand half ... Nnene
This is an excellent explanation. I am glad that learning Japanese has worked out for you. Your English is excellent too, I couldn't have guessed that it isn't your native language if you hadn't told me so yourself. I will put your advises into good use. Thank you for your patience and time.
This is an excellent explanation. I am glad that learning Japanese has worked out for you. Your English is excellent too, I couldn't have guessed that it isn't your native language if you hadn't told me so your... 《Lilas》--❦--❀
It's nothing ^^. And thanks ~
I'm not sure how far you've gone, so in case that can help demystify the whole kanjis which can be seen as the big mountain. I often bring that up to people :3:
Kanjis are made up of radicals. There are about 250 of them (not all are used at the same frequency, don't worry too much aha). They "mean" something, but not all can be used by themselves.
Like, here's a kanji: 繭
Copy paste is somewhere else if it's too small lol. But it's kind of complex, right? 18 strokes.
But here are the radicals it is made of: The radical grass, 艹 The radical "inverted box" or "window frame", 冂 The radical thread, 糸 The radical insect, 虫
繭 means cocoon.
Now, sometimes only one radical holds meaning to the kanji. But yeah, what's cool is that you can often guess the meaning by recognizing them in kanjis.
And how you recognize them? For me, it was the book I referenced you aha. But learning how they were drawn, much like hieroglyphs, in the first place, and how they were simplified in order to stylize the writing system. Then they also do the same with kanjis by mising them up and telling why as well. Asahi Kanji is also a good app that tests your recognition of the radicals, so I used that as well.
When you have learned a good chunk of them, then kanjis suddenly start to all make sense.
Now you can try to learn how they're said at the same time, or after. I don't think that after would be too much of a problem, whatever you enjoy most.
I find kanjis really fun overall, it's like finally making sense of a coded language. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
By the way, that’s what my own “self-study” program looked like, feel free to take what you want:
1.Watching subtitled animes. Recognizing words often used subconciously. If you’ve been watching animes for at least a year, it’s probably enough. B-Baka! 2.Learning hiraganas Takes about a day. I used Dr Moku. Same concept, mnemonics, the “can’t unsee” phenomena. 3.Learning katakanas Same. 4.Learning radicals Get through the book, tests. 5.Learning a basis of kanjis Goes with “get through the book”. Don’t sweat learning a series a kanjis though. 6.Start to read, communicate, have at it. Mangas are more friendly than novels, obviously, since there's less text and there are visuals to help understand the context. Use a dictionary and internet as long as you need, you’ll need it less and less as time goes by. Also get through the basics of the grammar, numbers, levels of politeness etc. I don’t have a specific place I can refer you that is in English, sadly. Start to use all of that acquired knowledge by participating in forums, write comments etc. 7.At some point you may want to start watching animes, Japanese shows or youtubers without subtitles. You can’t really force it, and communicating in person in Japanese with someone is probably going to speed up when you’re going to be able to do that. Of course, if you can do that, do it as soon as possible. If not, enjoying animes and learning written Japanese with all the grammar and whatnot will probably make it click at some point. It was like that with English for me, at some point I just found out I could manage.
Personal advice, don’t waste your time on learning the stroke order. I don’t know about you, but I never really write since I’ve been out of school, I only type, so I don’t see how pertinent it is to learn how to write kanjis in today's world with their specific stroke orders. Too much trouble for not much use. I doubt you’re going to need it either.
Your study program is very similar to mine. However it didn't occur to me to study the radicals because I don't rely on them to look up a character in a dictionary but on the SKIP method which consists of identifying the pattern to which belongs a Kanji character and the number of strokes of each part when the kanji is devised into two. This leads me to comment on the last part of your reply. Indeed, it is less cumbersome to memorize the strokes' order for each kanji but in my case doing the opposite thing caters to my taste because I practice calligraphy in my spare time and I am interested in learning Japanese calligraphy too. Your study program is quite logical; the only disadvantage I have compared to you is that I am not much of a listener. I can read and write for hours but when it comes to films and YouTube videos, I become restless. I can remain interested only for a few minutes hence I need to find some very short videos to watch in Japanese, and with subtitles, on a regular basis. It has been very generous to share your tips and how to's with me. Thank you again for your very much appreciated help and time (=・ω・=).
Your study program is very similar to mine. However it didn't occur to me to study the radicals because I don't rely on them to look up a character in a dictionary but on the SKIP method which consists of ident... 《Lilas》--❦--❀
Ah, well if it's the way you prefer, then it's all good :). Depends on your goals ehe. I'm not too into calligraphy myself, so when they always systematically teach the stroke order I'm kind of not sure of what to do with it aha.
The SKIP method I'm not a fan of at all, but I'd be tempted to think that's a matter of one's learning style. I'm very much a visual learner. Btw, not a listener either, but videos get my attention more, obviouslyヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~. I focus on learning unconsciously when it comes to oral speech, I just enjoy then content and try to understand the meaning.
Though the big advantage, with all the radicals assimilated, is that you can better guess the meaning of the kanjis after. I didn't really learn them because of dictionary search, though I do happen to use it with them obviously aha. It came handy to me multiple times, and there's not that many radicals compared to the number of kanjis. But maybe that's useless to learners not leaning that much on the visual memory (I do happen to score very high on that type of IQ), that I can't tell.
But if you're comfortable with your program as it is, don't change it, we do become fond of one technique or the other :). Whatever works in order to crack through kanjis aha.
Actually, memorizing the strokes' order is tedious though there are rules and guidelines which govern this. This is totally optional though; I even doubt that Japanese language learners memorize them anyhow (=・ω・=), except for students who majored or are majoring in Japanese language study.
I am glad that you can learn from videos; they're definitely going to be inserted into my curriculum in the future.
I believe that looking up a character by its radical is handier than doing it by the SKIP method. As an utter beginner, I've totally relied on the SKIP method. It is very useful when you're looking at a scanned page and part of the kanji character is undecipherable; not to mention the blurriness of the furigana characters. In spite of that, I always manage to find the kanji in question, some way or the other, thanks to the SKIP method. However, this is going to be in the past now as I want to properly study the language first, then attempt to read Japanese text bit by bit. It is obvious that a systematic study of the language requires to learn and memorize all the kanjis' radicals.
I hope that you're going to achieve fluency as time passes by; and perhaps when that point of time is reached we can have a conversation in Japanese. It is going to be difficult but yet achievable lol (づ￣ ³￣)づ
Oops. I forgot to hit the reply button before commenting so a new message post has been initiated. Sorry about that. (=・ω・=)
It's fine :P
Ah, well I sure have no clue what to do with blurry kanjis sometimes lol. Sometimes I manage to guess and recognize a few radicals, but hey I'll try the SKIP for times where that doesn't work aha. For less blurry stuff, when it's on a picture and I can't copy it, sometimes I get lazy and use my cellphone to scan it aha. It came with the app Asahi Kanji. The bigger it is though the better it works.
I just went through the radicals before jumping into reading, that's all there is to it ╮(￣▽￣)╭
There was a study carried out among university students that showed that there was an average of two strokes missing for more complex kanjis. Imo it's pretty much an art. They have to learn the order however, because when you write quickly, your letters tend to get cursive right? Learning the stroke order diminishes that effect, and people can better read them. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it's going to near unreadable if it's completely off.
And yes, it's achievable~. Not necessarily difficult, it depends on how impatient you get aha. Personally I'm fine if it's under 10 years, though that's not to discourage you, I'm just not that always actively into it.
I am really sorry for the late reply. I was so busy that I didn't have the time to visit this website until now. LOL those blurry kanjis are a pain in the neck. Sometimes I try all the tricks up my sleeve but still at least 20 to 30% of them remain unidentified inside of a scanned page. There is a website (it is more than one actually) where you can find a kanji by drawing it (jisho.org for example) but it takes a longer time to find the missing kanji if the stroke order isn't right.
Handwritten kanji is another nightmare. Eleven days ago I stumbled upon a handwritten text inside a manga which lasted for several pages. I almost had a heart attack because some of the hiragana and katakana weren't clear; never mind the kanjis because they looked like noodles pinned on a wall.
I've heard that before - the part about 10 years - It is possibly correct that this is the lapse of time needed to become a great scholar in Japanese studies but I am pretty sure that advanced reading and communication could be achieved in two years of persistent studying (=・ω・=) ありがとうございまつ (you're hard working so you get the formal treatment lol (=・ω・=) )
Hello Lightasus,
Sorry for barging in on you like that. However I remembered you because I read some of your posts last year, on learning Japanese. I've begun a self-study program myself. So what about you? Have you become able to read Japanese without an intermediary tool (such as Google translate or any similar gadget)? If yes, how long did it take you? Arigatô.
Oops, just remembered I hadn't replied because I was too busy at the time and then forgot (￣∇￣")
Depends on what you consider being able to read without an intermediary tool. I'd say I can understand half without it, and the other half I have to look for. But then again, there are still words I have to verify in English, and I would say I'm not so far from fluency. There will always be words you'll have to verify, there's always some obscure ones.
Mind you, I've taken a break from actively learning it. Other things took over my life in the last year. I will resume it as soon as possible however.
But if you need some tips for language learning:
1. As a general rule, we learn things better when they are related to our survival or our personal goals. Your brain will just pay attention to it better. So focus on language content that is relevant to you.
2. Use the new language as a tool to communicate from Day 1. That's the mistake people make all the time that makes it that someone trying to learn a language may not even achieve fluency 10 years later.
If you can't physically go in Japan, throw yourself into forums. Try exchanging with natives. That's what I did on this website 2 years ago, while I was half confident in my English, and my, I've improved A LOT. So much that I surprised myself being pretty comfortable with going through English job interviews!
3. So, don't focus too much on memorizing this and that word. Don't be afraid of going through a dictionary all the time at first while trying to communicate or read. Your brain will memorize it better, because you actually use it fro something practical. When you first understand the message, you will unconsciously acquire the language. Much, much quicker.
4. It's not about knowledge, especially for speaking. Someone in Japan can have A grades in English, drop in the USA, and find that they understand nothing. It's more like physiological training.
5. Be relaxed and curious. Don't stress whenever you don't understand something 100%. Don't focus on being perfect, it'll come without you realizing it. I've first learned English through video games, since French translations were not available were I live at the time, and later I was already able to read and understand. That's because I focused on understanding the information rather than focusing on learning English.
Also, if you're one of those like me who are visual learners, you may benefit from purchasing "The Easy Way to Learn 400 Practical Kanji". They basically explain how those 400 kanjis were come to be drawn the way they are today. So you can then begin to link the kanjis to pictures related to the meaning rather than trying to memorize a bunch of lines. I found that helped me have a basis, much, much quicker all of the sudden. I still remember most while it's been a year I haven't really touched Japanese much. Can't unsee it aha.
That's pretty much it :)
This is an excellent explanation. I am glad that learning Japanese has worked out for you. Your English is excellent too, I couldn't have guessed that it isn't your native language if you hadn't told me so yourself. I will put your advises into good use. Thank you for your patience and time.
It's nothing ^^. And thanks ~
I'm not sure how far you've gone, so in case that can help demystify the whole kanjis which can be seen as the big mountain. I often bring that up to people :3:
Kanjis are made up of radicals. There are about 250 of them (not all are used at the same frequency, don't worry too much aha). They "mean" something, but not all can be used by themselves.
Like, here's a kanji:
繭
Copy paste is somewhere else if it's too small lol. But it's kind of complex, right? 18 strokes.
But here are the radicals it is made of:
The radical grass, 艹
The radical "inverted box" or "window frame", 冂
The radical thread, 糸
The radical insect, 虫
繭 means cocoon.
Now, sometimes only one radical holds meaning to the kanji. But yeah, what's cool is that you can often guess the meaning by recognizing them in kanjis.
And how you recognize them? For me, it was the book I referenced you aha. But learning how they were drawn, much like hieroglyphs, in the first place, and how they were simplified in order to stylize the writing system. Then they also do the same with kanjis by mising them up and telling why as well. Asahi Kanji is also a good app that tests your recognition of the radicals, so I used that as well.
When you have learned a good chunk of them, then kanjis suddenly start to all make sense.
Now you can try to learn how they're said at the same time, or after. I don't think that after would be too much of a problem, whatever you enjoy most.
I find kanjis really fun overall, it's like finally making sense of a coded language.
╮(￣▽￣)╭
By the way, that’s what my own “self-study” program looked like, feel free to take what you want:
1.Watching subtitled animes.
Recognizing words often used subconciously. If you’ve been watching animes for at least a year, it’s probably enough. B-Baka!
2.Learning hiraganas
Takes about a day. I used Dr Moku. Same concept, mnemonics, the “can’t unsee” phenomena.
3.Learning katakanas
Same.
4.Learning radicals
Get through the book, tests.
5.Learning a basis of kanjis
Goes with “get through the book”. Don’t sweat learning a series a kanjis though.
6.Start to read, communicate, have at it.
Mangas are more friendly than novels, obviously, since there's less text and there are visuals to help understand the context. Use a dictionary and internet as long as you need, you’ll need it less and less as time goes by. Also get through the basics of the grammar, numbers, levels of politeness etc. I don’t have a specific place I can refer you that is in English, sadly. Start to use all of that acquired knowledge by participating in forums, write comments etc.
7.At some point you may want to start watching animes, Japanese shows or youtubers without subtitles. You can’t really force it, and communicating in person in Japanese with someone is probably going to speed up when you’re going to be able to do that. Of course, if you can do that, do it as soon as possible. If not, enjoying animes and learning written Japanese with all the grammar and whatnot will probably make it click at some point. It was like that with English for me, at some point I just found out I could manage.
Personal advice, don’t waste your time on learning the stroke order. I don’t know about you, but I never really write since I’ve been out of school, I only type, so I don’t see how pertinent it is to learn how to write kanjis in today's world with their specific stroke orders. Too much trouble for not much use. I doubt you’re going to need it either.
Your study program is very similar to mine. However it didn't occur to me to study the radicals because I don't rely on them to look up a character in a dictionary but on the SKIP method which consists of identifying the pattern to which belongs a Kanji character and the number of strokes of each part when the kanji is devised into two. This leads me to comment on the last part of your reply. Indeed, it is less cumbersome to memorize the strokes' order for each kanji but in my case doing the opposite thing caters to my taste because I practice calligraphy in my spare time and I am interested in learning Japanese calligraphy too. Your study program is quite logical; the only disadvantage I have compared to you is that I am not much of a listener. I can read and write for hours but when it comes to films and YouTube videos, I become restless. I can remain interested only for a few minutes hence I need to find some very short videos to watch in Japanese, and with subtitles, on a regular basis. It has been very generous to share your tips and how to's with me. Thank you again for your very much appreciated help and time (=・ω・=).
Ah, well if it's the way you prefer, then it's all good :). Depends on your goals ehe. I'm not too into calligraphy myself, so when they always systematically teach the stroke order I'm kind of not sure of what to do with it aha.
The SKIP method I'm not a fan of at all, but I'd be tempted to think that's a matter of one's learning style. I'm very much a visual learner. Btw, not a listener either, but videos get my attention more, obviouslyヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~. I focus on learning unconsciously when it comes to oral speech, I just enjoy then content and try to understand the meaning.
Though the big advantage, with all the radicals assimilated, is that you can better guess the meaning of the kanjis after. I didn't really learn them because of dictionary search, though I do happen to use it with them obviously aha. It came handy to me multiple times, and there's not that many radicals compared to the number of kanjis. But maybe that's useless to learners not leaning that much on the visual memory (I do happen to score very high on that type of IQ), that I can't tell.
But if you're comfortable with your program as it is, don't change it, we do become fond of one technique or the other :). Whatever works in order to crack through kanjis aha.