http://ninjazl0l.deviantart.com/journal/Why-is-rape-so-prevalent-in-yaoi-manga-292643402 ...

'freedom comes with responsibility'. fair point. Though exploration is necessary with enough justifications and responsibility, I agree that some of this has also gone out of hand.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/24/accessing-rape-pornography-restricted-law

I find the two arguments for and against rape fantasy interesting

I like rape trope but yea, it gets annoying when it becomes cliche. Quality not quantity.

This site offers its readers a choice in what to read yaio it is clearly marked. Romance section. these are some ex. Hara Wo Daite, Sakaiichi Hatsuki, Junjou Romantica, The Tyrant falls inLove, Honto Yajuu,Love Mode, Doushitemo Furetakunai, Kimiga Koi, Dear Green 1 and 2, Graceful Life of Kayashma, Punch Up, Challengers, Americo Body talk and Mother's spirit(which some one keeps tagging as racist which it is not). What do these have in common no rape. there is ravishment of some kind. let me explain. were one charac. convinces the other asin the case of the Tyrant (the "uke) to proceed. he may not be by force. I;m sure any one on here can come up with many more ex. to refute you.Look around , they are labeled. WE Potatoes all i read was how bad Yaoi is those yaoi fans this /that. those people. You have manged to create a lot of us/them. There are a lot of themes in yaio that all people can relate to . it is not all abt. the sex. What does it mean to be a man, love to give yourself to some one loss, grief feelings. trust. But you don;t see these things,All you see is a bunch of political bullet points. that is sad. Yaoi (some are written by men using pen names) who are Jpn. I read it in a society in which to show emotion in itself is a weakness but not to show it is also is to fail. that is his burden.It is not always abt. the sex. WE are Potatoes. the view point expressed in the above article / since it is written by a westerner abt. Jpn. manga. is at best questionable. Seme/ uke simulates the traditional male/ female role taken. It;s for the story purposes.

Take your pills, hon, and get lost. Yaoi is a fantasy world and no one has the right to control our fantasies, and if you were mature enough you would know, that in the fantasy world you can choose who the rapist is, why he's raping you and when he stops. In real life that's impossible, so there is no connection between fantasy and rl.

Yeah, we are not fascinated by guys who, as soon as you say "no", would go and find another chick, since, well, they can do pretty well without you, you are not THAT SPECIAL. But there is no other way in rl, since if you like a guy and want to have sex with him - there is no reason for rape, and if you don't - you really don't. A knight in shining armour beeing so passionate about you, that he won't take "no" for an answer, doesn't exist in rl, so relax.

"This is probably pretty irresponsible and far from mature exploration of the fantasy."
To fantasize is to indulge in daydreaming. It can only be mature if you want it to be, and if not be, then you are still in the right--not the wrong. Yaoi is not here to teach life lessons, this isn't nonfiction. It is a work from the mind of a mangaka--that is all. If you come into this genre expecting to gain guidance, you will be misguided into disillusionment. I am speculating this another variation of "think of the children."

"...like what some of the comments say, it becomes a reinforced and normalizing force when it is repeatedly used without much consideration. "
Not much is considered in yaoi other than where to stick it in. STDs and STIs are thrown out the window. I haven't seen a condom in yaoi in about two years. The process in how anally penetrate isn't considered properly either--you have the clean your ass, but you never see a uke doing so. If the principles of anal sex, the focus of yaoi,aren't even properly considered, you want a proper representation of rape? We have to get the anal sex right before we go full law and order. (I'm sorry, I'm being an ass now. Forgive my sarcasm, please.)

"We are all used to it in a sense that we become so uncritical of why the rape happens and its partly the fault of too many books among the 6007 featuring the glorified fantasy of rape in relation to books about normal healthy relationships and the consequences of rape. "
A person's knowledge of a healthy relationship would be influenced greatly by their parents/guardian and community. I am sensing that you trying to infer that relationships in yaoi influence how you view relationships in real life. I may be wrong. On a small spectrum, maybe, but it wouldn't lead them to go out and seek something unhealthy. You also are not taking into account what else they probably consume via television or whatever else they may read, which does represent rape in a modern setting, Law and Order: special victims unit(my fav show). How often they read yaoi plays a role too--there alot of factories worth noticing before you formally conclude this causes this. It would take a case study, years and years, to come to this conclusion. In fact, fiction is more likely to shape your beliefs for the better--not the worse. All and all, a trope is doing what it does best.

"The next point I have is about how many people say BL is a safe spot for women and not for the LGBT."
It is okay to have a target audience. You MUST have a target audience.

"If yaoi is an escape for women from the male gaze, sexualisation, and objectification of women, I don't see the fairness in taking out the same thing on another (and maybe more discriminated) group especially in this reinforced, overly used and mismanaged rape trope."

"This is important because for decades, women have went against the male gaze, sexual exploitation of women and the use of controversial fantasies by men in things like pornography and other media and it is still a battle today. But when the women themselves are so dead set in doing that same thing in such a prevalent manner to another group for insignificant reasons they lose the credibility in the argument against representation of sex in the media today."
Okay for starters....objectification is when you treat people like a tool, nothing more, nothing less.
A study shows men perceive women in porn as pure "feelings." Their emotions are taken into consideration, but their thoughts aren't being perceived. Fact is, they are not simply a tool. A Tool cannot feel, that is something unique to certain species--ie humans. If the readers can identify with the characters in yaoi, then they are not objectifying them. They are identifying with them as a human would and considering them. I see this all the time with fans defending their favorites or getting mad at the seme for hurting the uke's feelings. Smut may be inline with this, but the werecats serious has a great deal of emotional pain. Women are emotional creatures,and this is apparent in yaoi as well.

"....yaoi has mostly revolved around a 'seme' and an 'uke', with equality in relationships being rare."
Actually, because we dealing with a same sex couple, equality is perceived. They are both men; they both have the same energy. Women who write gay fiction have expressed this as well. They love the fact that two men are essential on the same playing field. "Seme" and "Uke" were brought about to make it easier for the reader to identify with. Okay, seme. Okay, uke. It makes the genre easy to digest.

"The male gaze is still there when we portray ukes who look like just stereotypical submissive girls with dicks."
And for the most part, the fanbase can't stand them, so what does that say? I have no idea. You tell me.

"As for this, I am hoping that the bara community has gained a good ground with the yaoi community because 77 works against 6007 is still not enough for change."
Can gay men not objectify other gay men? This is what I am getting from this. I have read quite a bit of bara, nothing too shocking and no real issues are brought up there either despite being targeted toward gay men.

"I've met girls who comes off as patronizing and weird out my gay friends with their own fantasy and their reason for "liking" gays and why their actions are justified is cos they've read yaoi and therefore makes them automatically LGBT friendly. But when most of yaoi is misrepresented, though it gives sexual freedom and excitement to women, it is fueled upon the sexual exploitation of another group and thus results in cringe worthy treatment of others by so called 'supporters of yaoi'."
I agree this is disgusting. They have objectified gay men, but if that was the sole purpose of yaoi there would be no need for a story-line, backstories--anything worth making a character. Some people do objectify others, but what those few did is not reflective of the entirety of this genre's fans. I am here because I love a good story. My first manga was loveless. I jumped to find it. The last episode left too many unanswered questions.


Totally agree with your last point. It would be a nice change.

There is no doubt that certain tropes become prevelent in various genres, and the rape trope is easy to find in yaoi. However, you seem inclined twords false generalizations and assumptions about what "women" do--for example:

"[F]or decades, women have went against the male gaze, sexual exploitation of women and the use of controversial fantasies by men in things like pornography and other media and it is still a battle today. But when the women themselves are so dead set in doing that same thing in such a prevalent manner to another group for insignificant reasons they lose the credibility in the argument against representation of sex in the media today."

There has never been a time when all women agreed on anything, and I doubt there ever will be. You set up a false equivent by comparing the opinions and activties of some women to the behaviors and atcivties of a completely different group. Sure, pornography is controverrsial, but you have no evedence that the people who find pornography to be harmful are the same people who read yaoi or mm fiction. You simply apply the generalizatin "women" to two completely differnt groups. In the pornography debate, some people question objectivaction in erotica and porn. Others see it as fanatasy. That's what's happening here too. You are comparing apples and organges and callng them all fruit.

I have no doubt there are people in real life who come off as patronizing to gay men (and other people in the LGBT+ communigy). The LGBT+ community faces a lot of bias and misunderstandings. What real peole do to real peple is a issue to consider--but it is not linked to fictional stories such as yaoi. People who understand the differnce between charachters in strories do not suddenly change because of yaoi. People who act that way would probably do it regardless--because no one taught them better. You shold look to their parents or peers and not reading materials.

There are people in the LGBT+ community who find the stories in yoai and related genres to be freeeing. Some may not like it. Some like some of it but not other parts. In any group, people will have a varity of opinins and expereinces. No one gets to set the rules for an entire groups' opnoin--that's also a false generalization.

Female fanatsies do not have the responsibility to adher to a politica agenda. I am all for taking down the patriarchy and I believe we need femmisism, but every aspect of my life is not dictated by that, and my fanatsies can address other issues and needs. There are all kinds of feminists. I am no less a femminist if I like to sexually dominate nor if I like to submit in during sex--because that's a sex act or a fanasty or something I chose. It's about the trust and inimacies in my personal relationships and the things that titalite me in my fanatsies. It is personal. You can say the personal is political, but no one polices my fanatsies. Everything I like does not have to be approved by a committee. That isn't feminism--it's using the rethoric of femisim to exert your own power over others.

If the tropes bother you, the answer is simple: be the change. Write and draw mm eroctica stories that you think are responsible and that reflect what you want to read. If you do it well enough, people will read it. If you are able to meet peoples needs and desires in a better way, it would become a trend. So if what other peopel write bothers you, write something better. You can't police what other people write, read, or think--you will have to persuade people by providing an alternative they like better.

I dunno bro, he or she didn't try to control our fantasies. Just asking us to be responsible with them like how we would be responsible with things we enjoy especially when it affects groups of people. When you're quick to defend the sex fantasy (only one part of the comment; and blame the person as the oppressor when they're being open minded and opinionated, it doesn't reflect good on the community. Aren't we a group that prizes in freedom of expression? Then it's not reaally a good sign when one starts shutting out opinions with such hostile language. I agree that some of the comments below are somewhat misunderstanding what forced seduction fantasy is about but this comment had a fresher more understanding approach. It didn't say RAPE IS WRONG STOP, it says there are various issues to consider when we consume the different scenarios of rape and accept how repeatedly they play out even if it's unnecessary. The firt 50 to 100 books on rape as an overexaggerated solution to small problems is okay but when it's the recurring pervasive theme for a large fraction of the books like say over 500 with similar story lines, it gets tiring and loses its importance in exploration since it's Feels like there is no more thought in adding these tropes. I like caste heaven because the author really uses the aspect of rape to signify the dominance power play, this social hierarchy and a new exploration of sexual fantasy and not just a failing factory manufactured BL.

We can all go into this denial of its my fantasy, I fantasize the way I want. But we have to face the issue of how we treat homosexual relationships with this prevalent use of rape. (This is something the above comments have nicely ignored) even if we argue that's it's about women, we are representing other group of people's lives. Isn't yaoi supposed to be where women can escape the repeated male gaze and sexual exploitation of women and form their own fantasies? Then I agree that it's a bit awkward to repeatedly do what we don't want; and escape from; to the gay community. A select number books like 500 to 600 are fine because it's exploration of our darker nature but not pervading the entire genre where the lines of rape are blurred for insignificant reasons and are forgiven easily. We have claimed that women erotica is trying to stand up to patriarchy but I agree yaoi had established a social norm similar to patriarchy itself. Tho we claim the Dom sub relationship is for our exploration of fantasy, it's pervasiveness where the Ike's are more girly than actual girls still entrench the idea of dominant masculine one on top and submissive girls at the bottom. We've went past the exploration stage, it has now become a social norm.

The one thing that clicked in my mind is the comment telling about the experience of conversing with yaoi fan girls. I am sure not everyone does this but I've met a lot of yaoi fan girls; young and sometimes underaged; and they are very friendly. But sometimes things can take a turn from normal to awkward as they fantasized about things my gay brothers would do with people they treated as friends. And when someone brought up interchangeable sex and gender fluidity, they look with confusion and the most awkward part is the girls strongly advised my brothers to either be a seme or uke because of their looks and character. They are nice girls but I believe their young age and repeated elements of the same theme in a blurred out world is to blame as well. You can say it's m18 but it's the Internet. We can watch porn at the click of a button. We can all blame the parents but we live in a fast world of technology and parenting knowledge is trying to catch up with things in the Internet. Ask a parent if they know yaoi and its one of the things parents who grew up without the Internet won't know and won't look out for.

Though we love yaoi rape as a sexual exploration, we can't set up and claim we have clear boundaries of what is fiction and what is reality. Because traditional notion of sexuality in reality influences fiction, fiction then influences reality's notion of sexuality. That is what happened in Victorian England where literature portrayed women as the irrational pure naive and have wandering wombs that dictate their emotion and the cycle of reinforcement is so strong even till today patriarchy is still prevalent and the reason why yaoi exist because it's there to tackle the fact that women are not what they are represented as. So it's really should be a concern on whether we should should use tropes in such a reinforcing prevalent and widespread way that centers more on focusing one type of relationship as the norm on homosexual relationships.

We can have rape fantasies but we have to respect who and what we represent through variety and non normalizing culture for any trope especially it's another group of people who have their share of discrimination and misunderstanding

yes, it's better quality than quantity. Sometimes it gives you the idea that the use of "rape" as a fantasy is a lazy way to move forward the plot.

I don't mean to be rude, but who is "we"? This is a type of erotica, not a political movement. It has all kinds of fans. I am all for respect and for being sensitive to others. I hope people who enjoy yoai are supportive of the LBGT+ community, but I don't think we have to fall into lockstep agreement with how a certain group of people see the issue.

*If* a group is actually affected by something, I would be concerned, but so far all I see are false assumptions and generalizations. There are people in the LGBT+ community who enjoy yaoi, and no proof the tropes hurt any group. Again, the place to start supporting LBGT+ rights is in a political or social forum, not a small subset of readers. You are creating a false issue and targeting a scapegoat instead of taking on the real problem.

Finally, I am going to keep saying this until someone gets it: If you don't like what you read, create something you like. If someone wants "us" to be responsible, they need to create what they want to see and not just make judgments about what others have created. If you are willing to create something better, then you are not really trying to change anything.

"Isn't yaoi supposed to be where women can escape the repeated male gaze and sexual exploitation of women and form their own fantasies?"

LOL. No, what people like is the fact that you get two guys at the same time and no women in sight. Like you know, straight girls like guys?

Just like yuri. Guys (and girls!) like yuri because it shows two women, what they like most, have sex together. Not because they want to escape the woman gaze.

Though it's less popular because well, straight sex can easily focus on the girl. You don't even need to show the guy, just the dick works.

Now straight sex focusing on the guy and never showing the girl would be awkward :L.

If you are that concerned about the LGBTQA community, then why stop at the rape trope? Why not condemn yaoi as a whole, since even at it's most wholesome, you could claim that it is still an objectification of gay men, rape notwithstanding.

For anther POV: a friend of mine from high school dropped by and since he is gay, I put him on the spot and asked some questions. He isn't very PC and speaks only for himself, but he said the problem with "those gay comics" is that they have too much talking and "emotional crap" and take too long to get to the sex. He also said there were too many "twinks" and he would like to see more "bears". When I showed him bara, he thought they were maybe a bit too thick in the middle for his tastes, but better than the yaoi. I asked him how he felt about the rape trope and he said he isn't reading the words, and he just wants to see the sex. He isn't very evolved. He had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned the female gaze, but he does think I am a pervert. He likes that though.

A sample size of one means nothing, but it at least shows that there are a variety of views on the topic.

"aren't we a grp. that prises the freedom of expression? the not really is not a good sign when one starts shutting down opinion with hostile lang." There is hostile lang. and hostile approach. Some times not agreeing with the person can be seen as being hostile these days in the land of P.C. Under constant attack from the land of you are wrong you start to not care how it looks. See you did it again. Making it abt, the Yaio Fans and Gays and Us against them post. It's all about what happens bec. of Yaoi any Yaoi it's all bad and so are the people who read it,. I'm not going to talk to you any more. There is nothing else to say.