BUCKLE IN KIDDOS. THIS IS GONNA BE A LONG ONE.

"One, I've just re-read your responses and you never said anything about his attempts to escape. You only made reference to lots of instances of cock sucking which" <--- Check my responses at:
1.) February 12, 2017 1:06 am, second paragraph.
2.) February 12, 2017 6:03 am, third paragraph
3.) February 12, 2017 5:13 pm, 2nd paragraph

(I think I'm beginning to understand why we cant seem to reach the same wavelength. Reading and comprehending seemingly is beyond you)

"which, if taken place after his attempt to escape, can just as easily be taken as Bum's attempts to persuade Sangwoo of not killing him in revenge, or to convince himself the current situations couldn't be so dangerous since they were showing "affection" for each other" <---- YOU CIRCLING AGAIN because I have addressed that here:

[February 13, 2017 6:19 am, paragraph 7.] My response was: "We can imply that he stayed because the escape attempt has failed. But then, when they were at the cubicle of the bathroom, we were given insight to WHAT BUM WAS THINKING after chapter 15. " Implying he wanted to get to Sangwoo, EVEN AFTER his breakdown.

Sometimes, anon, READ.

" (that's how Stockholm syndrome is supposed to begin, you know)." <---------- Bum doesn't have Stockholm syndrome. Please re-establish your facts. Stockholm syndrome is developed when and during the captive was held hostage by the captor. The feelings for the captor emerge during the imprisonment/hostage. BUM HAS DEVELOPED FEELINGS FOR SANGWOO EVEN BEFORE BEING HELD CAPTIVE. So before citing syndromes, do your fucking research. If we're talking about mental illnesses, Bum most likely has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD, don't just google it, read reliable articles and psychological journals (sciencedirect.com is a pretty reliable source) to know what I'm talking about. And also to broaden your dim spectrum of knowledge). But, it's basically a disorder where in the people who have it have their "favorite persons" (FP), to put it simply. For Bum, it used to be the girl from his high school, now it's Sangwoo. People with BPD feel very strong emotions for their FP, most often clouding their judgement when it comes to their FP. (Sound familiar?)

"Two, ever heard the saying that "two wrongs doesn't equal a right"? Dysfunctional plus dysfunctional doesn't necessarily equal the best possible kind of love... " So, you are saying that THAT (the quoted text) implies to all situations? Including Sangwoo and Bum? Don't treat ""two wrongs doesn't equal a right" as some kind of universal law. Let me put an effort and explain how their dysfunctionality works. Go back to the chapter (8 9 or 10 i cant remeber) wherein Bum got sick and Sangwoo opens up to him (I go back to this scene because this is the point in the series where I think Sangwoo had began develop some sort of a sort side for Bum, quite a humane part of him) Sangwoo's really opening up and showing a lot of intimate stuff to Bum here and I think we can agree that it’s something rare with his behavior. Here he’s starting to trust Bum I think, with more private more intimate things about himself. With it I think there must be some level of affection Sangwoo feels for Bum for him to entrust that information to him. And all that was embedded in the pit of all the murder and abuse, which AGAIN will never be erased from this series.

"Some lucky cases may happen, I guess, but it's definitely not a rule... Where on earth have you learned that idea? IN romantic psycho killer movies?" <---------??? I'm confused what the heck are you talking about? I based my ideas on the flow of the series. I base my predictions on Koogi's way of thinking. Because I'm openminded enough and flexible enough to adjust to that. I dont relate to your cheap "romantic psycho killer" reference. I abide by Koogi's.

"That's why someone like Charles Manson is in jail dispie not having killed anyone himself, because everyone understood that people who devote so much effort to creating killers can be just, or even more dangerous...."<----------- I have enough brain cells to differentiate fiction from reality, thanks. I strictly apply all my thoughts and predictions to the KS universe. I DONT ADVOCATE murder.

"And four, if I need to explain why becoming a murderer is like giving up on any chances at a normal life," <-------------- WHEN did I ever argue with that? When did I even imply that. (**PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH**) Please indulge me. The argument, I can clearly remember, was about the term "unhealthy affection". WHAT I wanted you to elaborate on is the validity of the term "unhealthy affection" and why it cannot be used on Sangwoo and Bum. I'm wanted you to explain because clearly it IS affection, it's JUST THAT it is in the midst of the abuse, THUS the word "UNHEALTHY". (Still waiting for your explanation but clearly you're about to give up) .

"I'm out of this discussion because you clearly lack some basic notions in order to make it worthwhile." <-------- That should be MY line, don't you think? I try to adjust my perception of this series to how Koogi would most likely write it off, thus my cynical views about this. I'm really adamant about the dark themes, I try not to focus on the "bright side", because as the series had went, there is none yet. This series is a brilliance personified by Sangwoo. It is entagled with underlying tones of lunacy and derangement. You clearly are not at that level where you can stomach such things. No wonder why you were "sad" with Chapter 19, you are hoping for Bum's redemption and was disappointed to the lost of his "innocence". I tend to get over that and focus on what could possibly end up happening, my predictions based on the attitude of the characters and tone of the whole series.

We will never see eye to eye, it seems, because you focus on the hope of that "brighter side". While I adjust myself to the thinking of Koogi.

I'll continue entertaining you, anon. If you didn't give up yet.

"You keep mentioning Bum has a kind of sanctuary with Sangwoo, like what he had before that was worse." -------------> Remember that chapter when Bum attempted to escape BUT THEN we were given flashbacks of his uncle? Then he didn't proceed with the escape anymore? The flashback can signify Bum's hesitation to go back because he'd rather be with Sangwoo (who at that time has abused him and tortured him and broke his legs) because he didn't want to go back to THAT part of his past. Again, this may be influenced by Sangwoo. Based upon reading some KS fan’s (who actually have BPD like Bum) theories and ideas, they describe someone they kind of obsess over and have deep affection for as their “favorite person.” I personally do not have BPD but according to them, your FP not giving you attention any more or being mad at you is a very scary and depressing thing, which can make you worry to the point of becoming physically sick over. Their FP is someone very desirable to them, very tempting. I believe this is what Sangwoo is to Bum, he’s is Bum’s FP.

"And if Sangwoo's affection is such a sanctuary, how come he never gives Bum any pleasure?" <--- Sangwoo's affection is a sanctuary to BUM like you said. Is what your talking about regarding why Sangwoo's the only one receiving the BJs? You're talking about the sexual affection then? If you go back to the chapter where Bum gave Sangwoo a blowjob, he wanted it. That equates to pleasure for Bum, we can confirm this through his thoughts. And another instance is in Ch16, again, if you read his thoughts (we were shown actually, what Bum was thinking about) in the cubicle scene, giving Sangwoo pleasure gives BUM pleasure.

But if it's sexual intercourse you are trying to refer to, due to the outcome of Ch19, we might get some SangBum lovin.

"if you think thee's any happiness in being used and manipulated like a dog, you seriously need to revise that." <--- Ah now we go back to the "happiness" issue, which I may add, had already been addressed. Anyway. They achieve their own kind of happiness, the pyschological kind. Their own kind of sanctuary. Since they BOTH are ill minded. They achieve this happiness in their own psychotic level. Not the kind of "normal" happiness you know. BUT happiness regardless. Again, I'm saying this, not because I advocate this kind of thing, but because I'm adjusting my thinking at the level of dark tones of what the series has presented to us.

I can contemplate lost of possibilities for why the characters do each of the things they do and say each the things they say, from practical reasons (like convincing a killer not to kill you, in Bum's case, and keeping a witness from going to the police and reporting you, in Sanngwoo's case) to the emotional and irrational reasons, yet you keep choosing to abide by the ones that make their affections more likely to be requited and lasting.

You keep assuming a lot of things. Like that you know what Koogi is thinking, that you know exactly what kind of disorder Bum and Sangwoo have, that Koogi is using a psychiatric manual to decide each single thing he/she does in the story, that you're reading the exact same psychiaric manual and thus know exactly why the author's characters are thinking and doing everything they think and do... and that Koogi's decided her characters will be governed by their disorders to the point there is no predetermination or choice in any single thing they're doing, because they don't retain the tiniest bit of rationality, pathological or otherwise. That they are so enslaved by their disorders that every affectionate thing they say is genuine and can't possibly be, mostly, an act or an attempt to deceive each other. Has it never occured to you Sangwoo could be faking all this "bonding", that he may be perfectly aware of the fact that to him Bum is mainly a potential ally in the practical sense, or a replacement for his mother in the emotional one, and that he's ready to get rid of him if he decides he's not all that "satisfactory"?

All in all, you seem to have decided that Koogi can't surprise anymore you cause you are "on to her and her story". And no, you've never said it, but if you think about it, that is the logical outcome of everything you've been saying.

You keep bringing up chapter 16, yet forget Bum's breakdown happened after he saw, in his own distorted view, that the people he wanted to ask help from saw him as a lunatic while they seemed to be idolizing Sangwoo... He mentioned it even while he was giving him a blow job. That could have been the point he decided to give up on reality and fully "embrace" his disorder, whatever it may be. May be he is even aware that he has it.

I hope you never decide to pursue a career in psychology/psychiatry, cause if you have this mindset you will always keep overestimating your own understanding of their pathologies, fitting them into unchanging rigid classifications and thinking that you know everything... do you even know how many times psychiatry has had to revise its own notions? If lobotomy was the psychiatric "trend" now, like it was in some countries just a few decades ago, instead of Borderline or whatever shit, would you think it's a legit way of dealing with unmanagable patients?

First of all, I'd like to apologize because I haven't entirely read all of this post or any of the others posted here. Please forgive me if I bring up something you've already discussed. I am specifically going to comment on the Stockholm Syndrome dilemma. This is a bit of a ramble but it's something that's been on my mind for a little while. I was gonna post a separate topic about this but I saw your post and decided to comment here instead.

It always bothered me when people called their relationship a case of Stockholm syndrome (or Lima syndrome for Sangwoo). I feel when people are saying that they're giving the relationship a label without describing what exactly they think is going on. I say this because looked up some information on Stockholm syndrome and Lima syndrome and I found that neither of them were recognized psychiatric conditions. Not saying the phenomena is not real but without any universal classification, the conditions that must be met for Stockholm syndrome are subjective.

When people refer to Stockholm syndrome there is typically 2 different set of conditions thay could be using. One is more specific while the other is more general. However even these conditions are subjective.

Here are the more general conditions(copied from a research article):
1. the victim perceiving a threat to his or her survival
2. the victim perceiving some kindness, however small, from the abuser/captor
3. the victim being isolated from others who might offer an alternative perspective from that of the abuser
4. the victim perceiving no way to escape except by winning over the abuser

The more specific conditions applies more strictly to captor-captive situations(Copied this from Wikipedia because I couldn't find a source with this elsewhere):
1. A hostage’s development of positive feelings towards their captor
2. No previous hostage-captor relationship
3. A refusal by hostages to cooperate with police forces and other government authorities
4. hostage’s belief in the humanity of their captor, for the reason that when a victim holds the same values as the aggressor, they cease to be perceived as a threat

I found that the general conditions were actually more commonly used in research articles about Stockholm syndrome while the captor-captive specific conditions were more commonly used by the media and law enforcement. Using first set of conditions Stockholm syndrome can be applied more broadly not only to captor-captive relationships but also to domestic abuse victims, children in abuse, and a variety of other similar situations. Using the more specific conditions of Stockholm syndrome, Bum would not have Stockholm syndrome simply because he had strong feelings towards Sangwoo before begin captured. I think that is also subjective because the feelings Bum had towards Sangwoo were not not initially used as a coping mechanism for the abuse but it certainly could become that way. Bum has yet to reason with Sangwoo's abuse however it may not always be so especially after chapter 19. Using the broader conditions of Stockholm syndrome, Bum certainly could develop Stockholm syndrome as their relationship is somewhat similar to that of a domestic abuse relationship. I agree with you that it is not Stockholm syndrome but for different reasons. I still think it could become that way though. I also think that because of Bum's BPD it is more likely that Stockholm syndrome will occur.

I agree. The point is many victims have tried to "seduce" their captors as a way to convince them not to hurt them, with or without Stockholm sydrome. It's a controversial strategy many of them used to avoid imminent harm. And at this point I'm not sure to what extent many of Bum's "affectionate" actions (like blow jobs and such) are not dictated partly by that.
Also, the set of specific conditions are in a way ambiguous: "2. No previous hostage-captor relationship"... I can't say whether Bum and Sangwoo's previous relationship does or does qualify, because in a way it wasn't really a relationship, given they hadn't really even spoken with each other at that time.

"I can contemplate lost of possibilities for why the characters do each of the things they do and say each the things they say, from practical reasons (like convincing a killer not to kill you, in Bum's case, and keeping a witness from going to the police and reporting you, in Sanngwoo's case) to the emotional and irrational reasons," Good. I do too, if you'd noticed.

"yet you keep choosing to abide by the ones that make their affections more likely to be requited and lasting." Sigh. I choose to abide by it with reasons BASED on what we're given by the author and on how the character was portrayed, but those reasons are also with reservations because the series has yet to end. Also due to the reasons I have presented in the previous comments that you claim to have read and comprehended carefully.

"You keep assuming a lot of things. Like that you know what Koogi is thinking," <--------- Don't defame me. I said I LEVEL myself to how Koogi would think. And yes, there's a difference. I said that I base my predictions of how Koogi writes it, because I'd want to make my inferences NOT out of character as much as possible. I didnt say anything knowing what she's thinking. There's a difference, obviously.

"that you know exactly what kind of disorder Bum and Sangwoo have, that Koogi is using a psychiatric manual to decide each single thing he/she does in the story, that you're reading the exact same psychiaric manual and thus know exactly why the author's characters are thinking and doing everything they think and do... and that Koogi's decided her characters will be governed by their disorders to the point there is no predetermination or choice in any single thing they're doing, because they don't retain the tiniest bit of rationality, pathological or otherwise. " <----- I, along with other fan theorists, have INFERRED (a word I have been using from the beginning of this discussion) based upon Bum's actions that possibly he has BPD. You seem to be under the impression that I take it as canon that the characters have the disorders. I THEORIZED through context analysis that they have these disorders based on what we were given. I use the mental state that they have displayed in the series as a means to understand their actions, also as a justifucation of their actions. This can also even be applied to you since you theorized in the previous comment that their actions could be an outcome of Stockholm syndrome, in which I disagree to because some conditions of Stockholm syndrome were not met, therefore I leaning on him /theoretically/ having BPD. Which can justify his obsessive behaviour and stalking tendencies, because based on a hearty conversation with a KS fan who has BPD in tumblr, she shared they are often strongly influenced by their FP. Only that Bum's response to his FPs weigh a bit over to the extremes, promting him to steal things of his FP (i.e. her underwear, etc) and going as far as stalking and breaking in the house of his new FP. Remember that the BPD is a fan theory its symptoms coincides with Bum's character. I lean on their mental state to justify all the character's actions. Never said that or even imply that I see the disorders as canon. Capiche?

"That they are so enslaved by their disorders that every affectionate thing they say is genuine and can't possibly be, mostly, an act or an attempt to deceive each other. " <--------- Bum is an example of someone being governed by his state of mind, and as seen in chapter 19, we can confirm that this has been going on since his earlier days (high schooldays, apparently) Back then, the one who he's been obessessing on was the girl schoolmate, because her situation empathizes with his. In the latter part of his life, that became Sangwoo. As for Sangwoo, I've mentioned that he /is/ abusive and manipulative, however, as I have stated before I am flexible enough that I entertain the reasons to believe that their affection is BORDERING genuine. (remember me using that word? I do, distinctly) Let me cite the example I used in my /previous/ comment:

[Reference: February 13, 2017 10:25 am, paragraph 5]
pompei: "Sangwoo had began develop some sort of a sort side for Bum, quite a humane part of him) Sangwoo's really opening up and showing a lot of intimate stuff to Bum here and I think we can agree that it’s something rare with his behavior. Here he’s starting to trust Bum I think, with more private more intimate things about himself. With it I think there must be some level of affection Sangwoo feels for Bum for him to entrust that information to him. And all that was embedded in the pit of all the murder and abuse, which AGAIN will never be erased from this series."

I base it on that moment and everything that follows after.

"Has it never occured to you Sangwoo could be faking all this "bonding", that he may be perfectly aware of the fact that to him Bum is mainly a potential ally in the practical sense, or a replacement for his mother in the emotional one, and that he's ready to get rid of him if he decides he's not all that "satisfactory"?" <------------- I have addressed this already, but I'll explain my side again so you can finally have a grasp of it. As I said I'm open minded and flexible to all possibilities, I entertain everything. I theorize as long as it's not out of character and fleeing away from the main tone of the series. For the justification, refer to [Reference: February 13, 2017 10:25 am, paragraph 5] I actually have an interesting input that Sangwoo parallels his mother with Bum, that explain my claims about Sangwoo's /feelings/ for Yoonbum. I'll share it if you're interested?

"All in all, you seem to have decided that Koogi can't surprise anymore you cause you are "on to her and her story". And no, you've never said it, but if you think about it, that is the logical outcome of everything you've been saying." <------------I think YOU're the one who keeps assuming things. You even negated yourself in this statement, stating that in fact I DID NOT say anything of that sort or even implied. I used different terms implicating different meanings. And you even had the gall to quote "on to her and her story", (you are so unreliable, stop it with the false attributions) because I used a different wording yielding a DIFFERENT meaning. And nope, I loooove surprises. I love the thrill of KS. And that's actually what Koogi keeps doing. (If you allow me to exaggerate) I like reading metas and fan theories, especially that of something related to KS because of it's complexity. I put Koogi in a pedestal for this brilliant series, don't you imply anything else.

And all this just because I base my opinions/predictions on actual facts and implement it on the series, you say what you say.

"You keep bringing up chapter 16, yet forget Bum's breakdown happened after he saw, in his own distorted view, that the people he wanted to ask help from saw him as a lunatic while they seemed to be idolizing Sangwoo... He mentioned it even while he was giving him a blow job. That could have been the point he decided to give up on reality and fully "embrace" his disorder, whatever it may be. May be he is even aware that he has it. " <-------- I keep on citing chapter 16 as a founded rebuttal to prove some of my points, because your argument is related to it. I CITE my examples because I don't want you to think that they're unfounded. Also, I disagree. If you implying is whether Bum is clinically diagnosed, then no, I don't think Bum is aware. Because he seems to categorize his actions as something that's alright to do? (refer to the earlier parts of his life, prior to sangwoo) What he is aware of definitely I think is his strong feelings for Sangwoo.

"I hope you never decide to pursue a career in psychology/psychiatry, cause if you have this mindset you will always keep overestimating your own understanding of their pathologies, fitting them into unchanging rigid classifications and thinking that you know everything..." <----------- Quit it with your argumentum ad hominems. You used the term "overestimate". I simply relay predictions, theories, and some facts, and I integrate it based on the KS universe. There are many other intellectual fans who theorize the way I do, they even understand it more so than I do since they have experience first hand. You're butthurt and say I know everything because I refuse to stay at the level of your thinking. They're theories, I don't know everything. (obviously, who does? im not a god ffs) You're saying this because I presented facts? Is that how you got into that conclusion? How quaint. They're not "rigid classifications", as I said my insights depend on the flow of the series, that means also on what's to be given to us in the following chapters.

"do you even know how many times psychiatry has had to revise its own notions? If lobotomy was the psychiatric "trend" now, like it was in some countries just a few decades ago, instead of Borderline or whatever shit, would you think it's a legit way of dealing with unmanagable patients?" <----- I won't even entertain your ridiculous analogy, because I repeat, my insights are ///theories and predictions///. Nevertheless, I'll retaliate. You seem to be making it personal and implying that I apply this thinking in my day to day life. I do not support this kind of behavior in real life. Like I said before, I have enough brain cells to separate fantasy from reality, to differentiate between what's morally good from what's not.

I based my Stockholm syndrome reply on the anon's February 13, 2017 7:04 am response. I've omitted the generalized views and focused on the captor-captive situation because that seems to be what the anon was trying to get to.

I tend to lean on the theories of Bum having BPD, since some of the conditions of him having Stockholm syndrome were not met. However, you do have an interesting thought about it developing into Stockholm as a coping mechanism for the abuses. However, should it be termed as 'stockholm syndrome' still? Or is there another term for that, since some conditions for the syndrome weren't met? I'm legit wondering, I'm giddy talking about this and making metas about characters in KS.

I apologize, I got angry. I admit I took it too personally. And I really think I should thank you because in a way this argument's made me realize I've become over sensitive to the issue of mental illness due to some stuff that happened in my life, though not BPD related, but I realized I still overreact when I think people are making either overly-negative or overly-sympathetic comments about mental illness. But that's beside the issue. I realize at some points I was really, really out of line.
As a token of apology, here's the specific canon page where BDP is mentioned specifically: http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/killing_stalking/mf/c001/16/
If you ask me, I'd have prefered it a thousand times if Koogi had just left specific real life psychiatric labels out of the story and just let each of the readers make their own guess about what Bum's problem was. Otherwise it's like opening a can of worms 'cause many readers may accuse her of encouraging all sorts of (wrong or exaggerated) assumptions about mental illness. I think he/she said sth on tweeter about how she's not writing this without any pretense of portrayal of real life (including portrayal of real life mental illness), but still, or perhaps for that very reason (you can take it both ways) she and her story would've probably been a lot better off, in my opinion, just leaving real life labels out of it. Even though I REALLY enjoyed her story so far (including chap. 19, even if that makes me a masochist, given everything else I've said), that particular mishap really irked me. Other writers have created equally criminally insane characters lacking proper psychiatric labels and it hasn't taken anything away from their stories.
But that's just me, I admit. I think I've said enough of the subject.
Once again, sorry for being so stubborn. Wish you a peaceful days and a thousand more chapters great oncoming chapters to read of Killing Stalking! :)

I'd also like to apologize, I realize I was a bit brutal sometimes too. I have become a bit sensitive about this issue as well. And please, don't get me wrong, I really do see the point you were trying to relay across, it's just that I really do just tend to lean on the cynical side lol. I can empathize with the 'psychiatric label' issue, but not totally since I don't have experience from it first hand or any immediate relative or friend, so I might not have strong feelings about it being an issue like others.

I have seen people with BPD (in tumblr) expressing their concern also over chapter 19, because apparently some people have generalized that individuals with BPD are mentally ill enough to kill. They have explained that the difference between reality to how Bum was portrayed is that, in the case of Bum, he had taken it a little over to the //extreme// side; going as far as breaking in the house of their 'favorite person'. They explained that they aren't obsessive, just that when it comes to their FP, it would seem that lines get a bit hazy and they can't help it. Like, all that significantly matters is of the comfort and pleasure of their FP. I don't have first hand experience so I base everything on other peoples accounts and research journals.

I say all this because I agree with you, perhaps it is better that labels of the characters' mental state have been left alone, because it may lead people to assume things about the people who actually have the illness. So I guess that's one example of how fiction influences reality. We can't even really use the 'distinction of reality from fiction' argument due to the people's lack of knowledge about the illness. Leading them to categorize the characters' actions in the same box with people who experience it in real life.

Thank you for the intellectual discussion! Cheers to the lunacy that is Killing Stalking, prompting people in arguments since 2016 lol ╮(￣▽￣)╭ (Bless you Koogi)