Excellent point. After I read the story, I wrote my reflection on it and part of that was that I found it unique because in romanticized rape, it is implicitly understood that the uke "wants it and enjoys it" because he's a either attracted or already in love with the seme, but he doesn't admit it; but in this particular case, the uke consciously verbalized what is the fundamental aspect of romanticized rape, his desire to be "sexually dominated/conquered" by the seme, that indeed, it was not rape because he acted on his own volition. So, here's the uke, openly admitting "I wanted it!" and yet people still continue to disparage it. How much more transparent can it get before readers start understanding the concept of the trope? It's like the magaka was purposely telling readers, "hey, look! I'm clearly telling you this is not your concept of rape". But it seems to have gone over most people's head (whoosh!). It's like a mob mentality, once it gets going, it's hard to stop. And again, Rape presented in a romanticized form in fiction is not supposed to unleash morally censorious judgments, because *** emphasis on word*** it's fiction created to satisfy a female sexual fantasy that happens to be greatly popular. Thank you AoiTori for adding to the discussion!
Thank you for writing that long explanation. It's totally spot on and I appreciate that you try to enlighten those readers in a mature and polite way. Though I doubt most of those offensive immature readers will bother to read it or try to understand our view, been seen this kind of mentality too much on the internet and real life. I often find myself very frustrated with their hypocrisy and their self-righteous comments.
Lately, I find there are more and more of those judgemental readers, unlike before when most of us could appreciate all kind of yaoi, and if some people couldn't handle hardcore yaoi then it's fine but they didn'y demonize us who enjoyed it. Al least, that's how it feels for me based on my own experiences in yaoi community. I know I'm old lol
So once again thank you for writing it and trying to defend us mature readers. And please pardon my grammars since I'm not a native speaker. Best regards to you.
I also agree that a lot of readers are and will always be unreceptive because their biases (ignorance) are too ingrained, so no amount of facts will dissuade them from their misconceptions and prejudices. Also, it is very important to emphasize that my commentary was probably 20% subjective viewpoint and 80% facts. It is a fact and not opinion that romanticized rape in fiction is not morally prescriptive or that it's not supposed to be morally judged; it is also a fact that Yaoi is a sub genre of Romance, and as Anon previously stated, Yaoi is fiction written BY adult women FOR adult women, it is also a fact that romanticized rape caters to the universal female fantasy of sexual submission/domination; universal because it is a sexual fantasy indulged by women across cultures/countries from all social/economic levels. Whether readers agree with romanticized rape or not is irrelevant, because facts are facts. I think that "kink shaming" is not a simple matter of "freedom of expression", as it is extremely disrespectful of women (all readers) that enjoy the trope, and everyone that believes in respect of others and is interested in fomenting an open and harmonious environment in our Yaoi communities should make a conscientious effort in censuring this derogatory behavior. "Kink shaming" should never be acceptable, especially in Yaoi forums as a domain predominantly created for women sexual expression. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, Kurenai!
I totally agree with you and anon. Yeah, facts don't matter at all for them, even if we shove it to their faces. Sometimes it feels like their brains are wired so that the right views and morals are theirs only no matter how bias and judgemental those things are, they just can't accept things and people that are different from them. Everyone have their own kinks and we have to respect that. If they feel that romanticized rape isn't their cup of tea and can't disassociate it with real life morals, then they should just leave it alone and don't have to make derogatory comments, nor being hypocrites that secretly enjoy it but in-denial and don't want other people know it by being bigots. If they want to be in-the-closet so-to-speak, then they should just read it and being silent and mature about it.
Like what you've said, we read yaoi to indulge in our sexual fantasies, so just find whichever catter to our kink and don't read the ones that aren't our kinks, as simple as that really. Being gay is considered immoral for a lot of prejudiced people irl too, so they shouldn't even read yaoi if they are want to be morally acceptable people. Some people just can't differentiate fictions and real life. And true, "freedom of expression" is a different matter from "kink shaming". But oh well... smh
I've been commenting too long again lol Anyway, thank you so much too for replying and sharing your thoughts, Kyouran. May all readers, women and men, can always enjoy our yaoi without any shame no matter what our preference tropes are. Cheers~
Thank you for providing such a comprehensive dissertation on the theme of forced sexual relations in fiction. Kudos for thoroughness and sensitivity on such a hot button subject. As I was reading your comment I felt an epiphany moment and saw a glimmering response to so many of the negative cycles of bashing, blocking, and dropping popular in social media as people unthinkingly react rather than engaging in discourse to others opinions on sensitive topics.
Thank you for taking the time to read the commentary and for your kind remarks, Rea. I also agree that engaging in discourse is much more productive and intellectually stimulating, but unfortunately, it does not provide the high for a lot of people that purposely use the veil of anonymity that the internet provides to let loose the very worst of human nature, which we have to otherwise repress under our normal face-to-face social interactions. That is why I really value people like you and everyone else that participated in the discussion and/or shared their thoughts. I even value those that thumbed down my post, because it implies they took the time to read the lengthy commentary (I would like to think they did) even if they disagreed with my argument :)
The thing is that is all fine and dandy and completely understandable as to why some women and men as well seek to read yaoi in particular for its allowance of sexual fantasy, however if the genre is for the purposes of women why are women not it’s primary subjects. I completely understand that having women as the genre’s characters would defeat the purpose of yaoi in that yaoi is inherently male on male driven love/sex. But then if the main purpose is an outlet of sexual desire for female consumption then why have male bodies occupy this space and subject them to real life circumstances of sexual abuse and violence for female enjoyment and entertainment, but claim victimhood when questioned on their right and depiction of queer male narratives ? Of course you could compare this to woman who view gay porn rather than straight porn for similar reasons of a primary attraction to the male form but one that is enhanced by the lack of female presence. However those woman aren’t demonized or judged for their sexual tastes. The real question is who has ownership and authority to certain narratives and depiction of said narratives? Both yaoi and gay porn are a fantasy are they not? However the narrative of gay porn is controlled by gay men with women peeking into this sphere of sexuality when they want to get their rocks off. That is not the case with yaoi, where it’s rather women providing the narration of gay men for other women. I know there is bara as well and it is primarily for gay men by gay men, but bara is truthfully a byproduct of yaoi for the most part. A genre that entails the same structure, tropes, and narratives of yaoi with more muscle and a patent for going the extreme in the genre’s most controversial tropes. That isn’t to say bara gets a pass and yaoi doesn’t simply because a man wrote the story in comparison. Actual gay manga that depicts and is demonstrative of gay men is limited and far and in between for yaoi or bara and neither truly make a claim at being educational or representative. However both are still sources of media that depict queer male love regardless, often in violent and abusive ways. For me at least the problem with yaoi may be ultimately it’s reliance on a lived experience their female writers have no experience or “authority” to, that romanticizes an experience they desire for themselves on “others” to remove that judgement and guilt attributed to having those desires play out on female bodies like their own. The issue becomes if those desires are their own shouldn’t the empowerment lie in having those desires be created for women, by women, and demonstrated on women? I suppose the equivalent would be, on the vein of my gay porn comparison, porn that caters to the female gaze specifically. Regardless everyone is entitled to their thoughts in regards to why they consume certain media, and I am not one to attack or shame another for their different mind set. I just personally do not like romanticized rape whether male or female bodies are involved because I personally separate the idea of dominated sex fantasy and rape not being exclusive to one another and thus should not group as the same for the sake of fictional entertainment. I do enjoy yaoi I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn’t, but what I don’t enjoy is the suggestion that just because yaoi was created by women for women means the genre gets a past of its harming of depictions of a subject that in fact has nothing to do with women as well. It’s almost ironic when you think of it. Yaoi is for women but it has nothing to do with women.
“Me Thinks the Lady Doth Protest Too Much” is my commentary on the demonization of romanticized rape in fiction and the potential hypocrisy of the reader in the closet. Just very recently I participated in a thread where a fellow reader was complaining about the offensiveness of the vitriol directed at yaoi stories with romanticized rape and the readers that like it, and after going through the barrage of negative comments in this manga’s forum, of which some have gotten really ugly, I have to say that my perspective has somewhat shifted and I can better appreciate her/his viewpoint. All of this negativity brings to mind C. Wright Mill’s “Sociological Imagination” about how people live trapped in their own bubbles without understanding history, themselves and the world around them.
It seems that a lot of readers confidently opine on “rape” in yaoi but most of those comments show a lack of understanding of the yaoi genre itself, and to a great extent of even themselves and the reasons why they enjoy Yaoi to begin with. There seems to be a huge misunderstanding in the yaoi community in how rape is depicted and how, depending on the context, is supposed to be interpreted. Rape in Yaoi is situational as it may be presented in the context of either“real life rape” or “romanticized rape” with varying quality of execution. The romanticized rape trope demands suspension of disbelief and disassociation with real life morality. It is not prescriptive of rape or condoning rape, because Yaoi NEVER condones real life rape, it is simply a trope in the romance genre that caters to a universal female fantasy of being seduced (preferably forcefully) and sexually dominated by their target alpha male. The reader is not supposed to apply real life morality to this trope, because it has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with a sexual fantasy.
Modern sensibility towards real life rape within misogynistic cultures compels us to demonize the rape trope in fiction, becoming a sort of “intellectual” imperative to be critical of it (even if we enjoy the trope), irrespective of actual intellectual depth; something that very unfortunately has shamed women that enjoy the romance genre into the closet by contemporary society for fear of being branded with the scarlet letter as “internalized misogynists”. However, I would argue there is no shame in the trope because it is fiction, nothing but an individual preference like anything else that bears no relevance on one’s moral or intellectual constitution. I understand that the concern of real life rape is a very serious issue and a lot of people have difficulty separating that from the stories they read, but nevertheless it must be done. Mature, sophisticated or creative readers have no problem making this distinction, separating reality from fiction, understanding that even though real life may reflect on fiction, it is not the responsibility of fiction to conform to real life, otherwise, it wouldn’t serve as an effective form of human escapism.
Comments such as “I do not like rape” in yaoi or romance genre forums can be interpreted as not only misguided and self-serving, but derogatory indeed, because it is implying that there are yaoi readers that “like” or “condone” rape, when it is accurate to say that NO yaoi reader (or mentally healthy readers in general) likes or condones rape; only rapists like and condone rape; therefore, such comments are indeed redundant because *emphasis on word* NOBODY likes rape. However, there are a multitude of readers that do enjoy romanticized rape in fiction, which is why is still widely used across genres. We don’t think of those that enjoy slash in horror as “internalized mass murderers” do we? Or that someone is condoning “gruesome murder” for liking the tropes in slash; logically, liking romanticized rape in fiction does not mean condoning rape in real life, again, because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
My reference to Shakespeare’s “Methink the Lady Doth Protest Too Much” underlines some of those judgmental readers that emphatically demonize both the trope and those that openly enjoy it; those readers that time after time continue to erroneously apply morality to stories framed with romanticized rape, even though they are not supposed to, because again, it is a trope with pre-established rules that demand suspension of disbelief and real life morality; but specifically, it emphasizes the potential hypocrisy at play, the fact that the same readers (some of whom are vitriolic) that continue to disparage the trope, that despite their judgmental attitude and continued expressions of disapproval, they still continue to read Yaoi stories with romanticized rape in them; an indication that far from hating the common yaoi trope as they emphatically profess, they actually like it. Otherwise, it is illogical for them to continue to read the same type of stories or authors that are known to use the trope if they actually hate it so much; after all, there are multiples ways of knowing what a story is about before engaging with it, whether by checking the tags on the manga or by browsing the comments from other readers; Case in point, people disparaging this story as “rape crap” when it’s clearly tagged with Sadahiro Mika as one of its authors/contributors, a mangaka known for consistently using rape (in both contexts) in her stories. Since romanticized rape is such a fundamental prevalent aspect of Yaoi, it would better serve such readers to stick to shounen-ai or authors that rarely use the trope, read the tags and comments, but contrary to such common sense, those readers continue to gravitate towards stories with romanticized rape. Again, if indeed they hate it so much, why continue reading it? After spending so much time in the forums, one starts to recognize fellow users, with those hiding behind the veil of Anonymous making it more difficult to ascertain.
And I suspect those that are more on the vitriolic side are the ones that enjoy romanticized rape the most, and their belligerence arises from their dissonance between liking the trope and societal pressure, or pressure to make themselves look “intellectual” or even conscientious, when their very action of applying morality to something that it’s not supposed to be, shows their lack of knowledge on the subject, that they in fact don’t understand the Yaoi genre, its origin and the different tropes that construct it or worst, that they don’t even understand themselves. Romanticized rape in fiction holds absolutely no moral value, it does not convey any type of prescriptive morality, it has nothing to do with moral fiber or intellectual depth, as its only purpose is to cater to the female fantasy of sexual submission, and nothing more.