It’s not, wowoon isint in a conscious headspace right now. He’s not aware of what he’s actually doing and the extent of it.
because it was! unfortunately due to his unstable mental state
ya he isnt but doesnt that still make ir rape
rape is non-consensual sex. if someone is in a bad headspace and they have 'sex' with someone without that person’s consent then it is still rape regardless of the mental or emotional state of the person doing it, please get it out ur head that this would negate from it being rape. i didn't read the chapter and just skimmed through it, and it looks like he did not give consent but u responding to this person's concerns with 'it isn't rape' and your reasoning being that it's because 'he isn't aware' isn't right
period.
Ok first off, the ML did gave his consent. He just eventually wanted a break so he said stop but when he saw the state of the MC he said it’s okay and mc could continue and do whatever he needed. This why you should actually read before commenting on something. Second of all, if a persons mental state is literally gone from reality and they don’t understand what they’re doing then they haven’t WILLINGLY chosen to do it either.
First, take your own advice and apply it to the comments you respond to. You'll notice that I said this at the end of my reply: "I didn't read the chapter and just skimmed through it, and it looks like he did not give consent but u responding to this person's concerns with 'it isn't rape' and your reasoning being that it's because 'he isn't aware' isn't right"
When I said that it looks like he did not give consent, I was referring to the fact that Seo-an was confused on why Woo-won was acting like that all of a sudden, pushing against him, and asking him to hang on. He looked actively confused though his concerns were muffled by Woo-won kissing him. Consent must be given explicitly and enthusiastically beforehand (not mid-way through) only and through clear communication, it looked like Seo-an was still confused even when Woo-won put his finger inside of him which is why said it looks like he did not give consent. But if you could point me to where he gave explicit consent to this particular act beforehand then that would be great!
But third and most importantly, if a person's mental state results in them not understanding what they’re doing, then it is still rape. Rape is the forced penetration of the vagina, mouth or anus of any person with any part of the body of another person or any object, against their will or clear consent. It's not rocket science, it's not in different shades of grey. The rapist's mental state while committing rape isn't a factor in determining the classification (rape), because someone was raped by them and rape is defined by a lack of consent, not the mental state of the rapist.
and that's a wrap! I wouldn't waste my breath any further. This is not a debate（￣へ￣）
Honestly, I didn't even wanna bother in the first place but I need this person to understand fully how rape works even if I have to shove it down their throat and write 3958457 paragraphs just to get the point across, I think I was pretty clear tho :-3 hopefully
I literally said you should read before you comment BECAUSE you said you only skimmed. You miss context that way. And im aware how rape is classified, just like you should be aware that in a relationship, a person may initiate something thinking the other person is on the same page but if that person isint then they need to say so. Seoan was surprised about woowons sudden initiation but he never said or did anything to portray he wasn’t okay with it. He was just concerned about Woowon NOT because he didn’t want to have sex.
And then because they did so many rounds seoans words were literally “it’s not that I don’t want to do it let’s just take a break first”. And because of woowons mental state those words never reached him because was completely absent mentally. I’m not saying what woowon did was right, he knew his emotions and way of feelings things had changed since the hospital and he should have gotten professional help immediately. Instead he tried acting like everything was okay until one day he woke up and thought seoan was gone which triggered his absent mental state and wrong perspective. He was wrong in terms of this and but he did not force himself on seoan because seoan was OKAY with doing it.
The main focus of my original comment wasn't even the actual situation but the fact that you said It’s not rape and then elaborated on that with: "Woo-woon isnt in a conscious headspace right now. He’s not aware of what he’s actually doing and the extent of it."
But I just re-read the chapter, he clearly did not consent and Woo-won's 'initiation' (as you call it) was met with uncertainty, Seo-an was confused, asking him to hold on and calm down, pushing against him, and you know he was wrong in terms of this because you're aware that someone's uncertainty should be met with care and communication, not further escalation right? And when that's not the case and they proceed with sexual activity, it's rape? Because rape is defined by a lack of consent? And consent needs to be explicit from someone who is aware of the situation and not uncertain about it?
Asking him to hold on was a clear form of resistance, it was the last thing he asked of Woo-won before he put his fingers inside of him. Stop bringing up Seo-an's words mid-way through when it was prompted by him being alarmed at Woo-won wanting to go again and was him asking him to stop.
"Wait! Do Woo-won! It's not that I don't want to do it, let's just rest a bit first! You're not even feeling well, why are you doing this? Hey, hold on!"
Consent is not forever, when someone says "wait" they're withdrawing it and continuing past that while ignoring them is also rape. This line you keep quoting was not him giving consent, he was overwhelmed and exhausted and it goes against the point you're trying to prove. “A person may initiate thinking the other is on the same page” Except it was made clear multiple times that they weren't on the same page and saying "those words never reached him" is clearly stating that he ignored his concerns. So, he raped him.
Rape is defined by a lack of consent, "Wait! It's not that I don't want to do it, let's just rest a bit first! You're not even feeling well, why are you doing this? Hold on!" Mid-way through, AFTER the first act of rape was already committed is not consent. You seem to lack understanding of the basic foundations of consent and what it actually means, it would do ALOT of good for you to PUT DOWN the yaoi and actually read up on it. I'm done here, I don't think there's more to explain when even the points you make are actively going against each other, but GENUINELY go read up on what consent means i'm not even joking...
BRUH I’m so tired of going back and forth because you keep ignoring the main point of this chapter which was the mental state of woowon. When seoan said hold on at the beginning, yes woowon should have stopped to see why but what your refusing to understand is that Woowon is not CHOOSING to ignore what seoan is saying, he’s literally not consciously aware that seoan is even saying anything. Idk how to be anymore clear on this. And once again, we as the readers have the context that seoan was saying hold on in the first place because he was worried about woowons unusual behaviour NOT because he didn’t want to do it with woowon. He was okay with it. That makes it consensual. It’s you who needs to go look up what consent means because there’s literally more than one type.
In the middle of the chapter when seoan says hold on, once once again I need to repeat myself and say that woowon did not CHOOSE to ignore seoan like you stated. He is so lost in his own head that he’s not paying attention to anything. And he’s not choosing to be this way, he can’t control it and he needs mental help. The problem is that woowon waited so long without getting that help and his mind keeps getting more and more consumed. This context is what you keep choosing to ignore and what literally what makes the whole difference.
BRUH I’m so tired of going back and forth because you keep ignoring the main point of this chapter which was the mental state of woowon. When seoan said hold on at the beginning, yes woowon should have stopped to see why but what your refusing to understand is that Woowon is not CHOOSING to ignore what seoan is saying, he’s literally not consciously aware that seoan is even saying anything. Idk how to be anymore clear on this. And once again, we as the readers have the context that seoan was saying hold on in the first place because he was worried about woowons unusual behaviour NOT because he didn’t want to do it with woowon. He was okay with it. That makes it consensual. It’s you who needs to go look up what consent means because there’s literally more than one type.
In the middle of the chapter when seoan says hold on, once once again I need to repeat myself and say that woowon did not CHOOSE to ignore seoan like you stated. He is so lost in his own head that he’s not paying attention to anything. And he’s not choosing to be this way, he can’t control it and he needs mental help. The problem is that woowon waited so long without getting that help and his mind keeps getting more and more consumed. This context is what you keep choosing to ignore and what literally what makes the whole difference.
Do I look like I care about his mental state? Woo-won raped him because rape is based on a lack of consent and not the rapist's emotional state. Seo-an told him to hold on, because there was no proper communication which is already the second red flag. This was abrupt, Seo-an couldn't even decide whether or not he wanted it because Woo-won would have gone through with it either way as seen in the fact that Seo-an was actively resisting and being ignored, which is not the same as explicitly giving consent. What makes it un-consensual is his lack of consent and the fact that Woo-won did not stop when he said to wait.
'Wait' is a form of resistance, YOU need to go look up what consent means because I'm well aware of the fact that when someone tells me to 'wait' it means to stop what I'm doing. There are multiple ways to consent, and saying 'wait!' is either a way of RETRACTING consent or asking to not proceed. If someone resisted in this way would you not stop? In the MIDDLE of the chapter while he's actively being raped by Woo-won, he says hold on again. That means STOP. He RAPED Seo-an and I'm coming to this conclusion by looking at what's right in front of me, Woo-won's mental state does not negate from it being rape. HIS mental state does not change its classification, his mental state is a reasoning, NOT a factor that decides whether or not it's rape, because the lack of consent IS the ONLY factor.
'NOT because he didn't want to do it' Seo-an did not want to do it, do you think while Woo-won abruptly came onto him, that Seo-an was busy thinking of how much he wanted it? no, he was confused, concerned, and not even in a position to process the desire of wanting sex. His concern over Woo-won made it impossible for him to clearly consider what he wanted, his concerns were at the forefront of his mind and when he did try to communicate those concerns they went ignored. From the moment Woo-won put his fingers inside of him, he raped Seo-an. It doesn't matter if Seo-an said 'it's not that I don't want to do it' mid-way through, what they're doing had already crossed the line of rape. (not to mention, it just looks like he's trying to soften the blow as he literally asks him to stop right after this. Two things can't be true at once in this situation, if he fully wanted it he would not be resisting, that means he was uncertain and even a yes plagued with uncertainty would not be proper consent.) The context makes no difference, Seo-an did not consent and therefore he was raped.
And mind you, you wouldn't need to go back and fourth with me if you just accepted the fact that rape is defined by a lack of consent and not the perpetrator's mental state. Seo-an did not give consent and resisted multiple times, therefore it was rape.
The last thing I’m gonna bother saying is that by saying you don’t care about the MCs mental health (which is a critical detail and focus of the story rn) and choosing to think it’s not relevant, you are deciding to judge a situation on incomplete information. A story is created by plot and context. Full context is what dictates what happened in a story, not your opinion or biased perspective. You can’t pick and choose what you want to be relevant or not and then present only your side and ignore everything else. It doesn’t work like that and it never will.
We're speaking about rape, I do not care about his mental health in the conversation that we're having because it does not change anything about it being rape yet you keep bringing it up as if it does. I have full context, I only got here by reading just like you did and I don't know why you're assuming that I'm speaking off having no context when I specifically said that I went back and re-read. This was rape, and his mental state doesn't change that, neither would any amount of context (MINUS CNC) because Seo-an was clearly resisting. Saying "It’s not rape, Woo-won isn't in a conscious headspace right now. He’s not aware of what he’s actually doing and the extent of it." Is wrong and you're picking and choosing things to excuse it from being rape (like his mental state) while ignoring the fact that the only factor in deciding if something's rape is the lack of consent (which was shown) You can repeat yourself a million times and say that it wasn't rape just because he wasn't in a "conscious headspace" but that will never change the facts and I think you're aware of that now since you're going on about context and mental illness in a discussion about whether or not it was rape while ignoring everything else that was said. If we were speaking about whether he was a bad person for it (for example), then his mental illness would have been a relevant topic however we're not speaking about that, this discussion is about the classification of what occurred between them and I am explaining to you why that classification is rape, and why "he's not aware" changes nothing about it.
I keep going on about context because this is a FICTIONAL story. That means the only thing that matters here is the plot and context of the characters. If this was in real life then yes things would be judged differently. And I haven’t ignored anything, I already explained my reasoning multiple times. I also don’t know why you try to twist my words, I didn’t say you don’t the context, I said by you choosing to ignore a crucial plot point, your deciding to only consider part of the context rather than looking at the whole situation and all the facts therefore reaching a biased conclusion.
I keep going on about context because this is a FICTIONAL story. That means the only thing that matters here is the plot and context of the characters. If this was in real life then yes things would be judged differently. And I haven’t ignored anything, I already explained my reasoning multiple times. I also don’t know why you try to twist my words, I didn’t say you don’t the context, I said by you choosing to ignore a crucial plot point, your deciding to only consider part of the context rather than looking at the whole situation and all the facts therefore reaching a biased conclusion.
Oh brother now you're going on about it being fictional. You know that rape exists in fiction too, right? It doesn't have to be treated the same, but the same conclusion can be come to. This is rape and I don't care if you think it matters but regardless of his mental state it is rape. No, I don't think things would have been judged differently by you because you clearly had a warped view on what is rape to be thinking that his mental illness would have made a difference. "You are deciding to judge a situation on incomplete information" IS you assuming that I'm not speaking on my knowledge of the full context. Him being mentally ill is not crucial information on our discussion about the classification of what he did, he raped someone and the lack of consent given by Seo-an is the only piece of crucial information. It's not a biased conclusion to say that he raped him due to the fact that Seo-an did not give consent when the story went out of their way to point out Seo-an's confusion and resistance multiple times.
Stop this feels like rape