this made me highly uncomfortable, not bc it’s bdsm but bc the bottom tells him it hurts...

Just a quick question, so if it's just plain abuse and whatnot it'll be under "abuse" and not bdsm?

Technically, he gave his consent the night before when he was drunk and then remembered it when Shizuru was talking to him when he first woke up. I think that he has never done BDSM before so he's more scared than anything, but he does say "Why am I just obediently obeying this guy?" and that he knows if he had protested harder that Shizuru would have stopped. It's at the very end of the first chapter. And considering the fact that I have been involved in BDSM as both top and bottom for over 25 years... I think I can safely say that yeah, this is BDSM.

Thank you.
People would retort drunken consent is not valid, yes I agree but if indeed he didn't want what was happening he could've contested his consent. I am messing up the names but the dom seems to always wait for the subs's reaction and moves on to the next part after assessing that reaction. Everything's subtle. 25 years, I trust your judgement.

You're more experienced than I am , but like there was no immediate consent right ? Like I don't think consent works that way in real life ( because then you could give consent one month ago , would it still be valid ? From my pov , no . ) Consent can be retracted at any moment as well right and the other person would have to stop at that moment because its then non consensual. Considering all that stuff ( plus , why was there no safe word ? ) , technically wouldn't it still be rape ?

I think the same thing but "not real bdsm" team always object to it. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

The only part where I think the manga is doing wrong is that the dom is doing this to a first timer or someone new and had no previous encounter with BDSM. But generally, what they are doing is fine but mostly for those are already experienced.

In a real world BDSM relationship, once the consent is given then it holds true until the person revokes their consent. Kind of like when someone asks you to be their lover... they don't have to ask you again every week, right? Consent and agreement are assumed until one or the other person says things have to change. Yes, consent can be retracted at any moment, unless a contract is signed. Then you have to break the contract. Personally, contracts have always seemed a little silly to me, it's not like you are going to take that contract to court and say 'I'm suing my dominant lover for breach of contract, he has two other subs besides me and the contract says he would only have one other'... A truly caring and responsible dom would stop if the sub asked... but at the same time, a sub is looking to be dominated and controlled by the other person. if a dom were to stop every time a sub said 'ow, that hurts' then the sub isn't going to get the fulfilment they are looking for. it's one of those very gray areas that is different for every single person and every single relationship. As for the safe word... for what they have done so far in the manga, one really isn't needed. a safe word is primarily for two strangers ( or at least two people who aren't overly familiar with each other) having a scene or if the couple is getting into the more extreme acts. Again, the responsible dom will be able to read the subs body language and know how close to the sub's limits they are and whether to push a little further or to back off. and honestly, a lot of what 'vanilla' lifestyle people call rape, BDSM lifestylers call hard sex. another one of those gray areas. Sorry, it's so long, just trying to answer everything.

Yeah , he was doing it to a first timer who was scared and stuff , but what made me highly uncomfortable was that ~
1.) There was no fucking safe word .
2.) He didn't give immediate consent .
3.) He retracted consent several times .
I think no matter how experienced you are in BDSM , consent and safe words are taken very seriously because or Seles it can be either traumatic as an experience or/and rape .
I think these are the places where the manga ( and most of the people who follow the manga blindly thinking that none can criticise it ) went wrong .
As I said , I'm not a BDSM practitioner but have picked up a few rules from here and there , these are general life rules , not only BDSM .
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Btw , I really did enjoy the manga and the smut , but the doesn't exempt it from being criticised .
(づ￣ ³￣)づ

:)

You hit it on the head, 'Everything is subtle'. That sums it up, if you really look closely at how Shizuru (the dom) is acting and talking, you can see it.

Did he really retract his consent? He protested a few times, yeah. BUT! It seemed to me to be half-hearted protests.
Everyone interprets things differently, that's what makes life interesting!

And yes, consent is taken very seriously and yes it can be traumatic if the dom messes up and misinterprets the subs reactions and protests. The sub puts a lot of faith in the dom that the dom will not hurt them more than they want to be hurt and to have that trust broken... I've seen subs leave the lifestyle because of that.

I wish more people would agree with you about the general life rules and follow them. This would be a happier world.

Regarding Consent :
Yes , if he says " no , don't " , in the reality that we exist in + legally , that's considered retracting your consent . Because if we apply that " she didn't protest hard enough" rule irl then rapists would get away saying " the victim didn't protest hard enough ! Their protest was half-hearted ! " . Can you see how messed up that sounds ?
That's not how the world works as a system . Maybe the victim was scared , tired or indecisive , but that's not a free pass, consent or a "yes" for the rapist .

Okay , but all that kind of seems tacky so lemme just quickly address it . ~
1.) The sub was new to the bdsm world , gave consent at night ( irl and Legally , that's not considered consent , and bdsm does exist in reality . If the sub accepts all of it , then fine . But if he went to courts saying that he gave no immediate consent , the court would rule it as rape. )
2.) Even if all these shenanigans were acceptable in the BDSM world , this sub was new to the BDSM world . He knew none of the rules and how to retract consent . That's just either pure manipulation from the Dom's side or just careless , none of which is excusable .
3.) About consent , don't you think that the sub may have truly felt uncomfortable ? I want none of that " he didn't protest hard enough " bs . If he said no , irl it means no . If he said " ouch " , it isn't a no . Ouch == no .
4.) Us vanilla lifestyle folks just don't take rape lightly . The sub was a vanilla person till now mind it , so in his book , this would still be rape . + no contract was signed , so even in BDSM rules , this was retracting the consent , wasn't it ?!
5.) The sub wasn't experienced enough to not have a safe word .
6.) Body language reading is not applicable in many situations , a rapist can't say that they were reading the victim's body language .
7.) Is consent not a thing in the BDSM world ? Supposed the sub is tired or just not interested in sex at that moment , would they still be forced to have sex because they gave their consent two days ago ?
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A bit of a turn off because I was kind of interested in getting into the BDSM world , but if rape is a norm there , idk how I feel about it anymore ...

I completely agree with you! ... If we are talking about a situation involving a rapist and a victim. In 99% of situations, when a person does not desire to have sex, no is no is no. And the other person should back off. Forcing someone to participate in sexual acts of any kind, whether it is oral, intercourse or even just a strip tease is completely wrong. Begging and pleading with your spouse or lover to have sex until the other person gives in and agrees just to get you to shut up is rape as far as I'm concerned.

But, here's where it gets difficult and nose dives into that gray fuzzy area. In vanilla relationships, there are people who like their partner to be a little dominant and forceful. They protest weakly at first and then give in. For them, it's a harder version of foreplay. It adds a little spice to regular sex. At the same time, there are some people who are timid and indecisive or nervous about new things, who want a partner who is strong and assertive, especially in the bedroom. Or maybe they are embarrassed to be seen naked for some reason so they protest some.
In BDSM, it's VERY gray. yes, consent is a huge part, the biggest part, the most important part. But, BDSM stands for three things. Bondage and Domination, Domination and Submission, Sadism and Masochism. When I am taking the role of the submissive, I am looking for a strong dominant. One who will make me obey him or her. I want to know that they are forceful and 'stronger' than me. Submissives are true to their 'name', they want to submit. There is even a sub group of submissives called SAMS. Smart Assed Masochists. They will deliberately provoke their doms by being sarcastic and snarky just so they can get punished.

I'm not saying that someone who says they are submissive is automatically giving their consent for a dominant to do whatever they want to them. Limits should be discussed, both hard and soft and if a sub truly, truly doesn't want to do something then they shouldn't be forced into it.

Yes , I get what you're trying to say . I'm an indecisive person , but I felt as if the Dom in this manga took advantage of his indecisiveness .I'm indecisive but people would try to force me into things because of that , and a lot of times I didn't enjoy . That's called manipulation. I've changed and a lot of other people like me would have to , if they want t survive in reality .
Even if they give in later , there's a 50/50 chance that they did enjoy it vs they hated it . But as I said , legally , there ain't no gray area . If a person says no , the initiator must stop , or else " technically " , it is rape .
I know a lot of people say "no" during sex as a way of teasing / showing their stubborn side but they actually mean yes , that's why a safe word should have been discussed in both the situations and the implication of the word "no" must be understood by all . That is where the manga failed at a basic level , no safe word . Since there was no safe word , no would be taken as no , it wasn't here . That puts the Dom in this manga in the " rapist " category and not just in a gray fuzzy area .

Rape is not the norm for BDSM!!! I am really sorry if something I said came across that way.

1. You are absolutely correct. That is something that is a real concern for doms all the time. That is why the 'good' doms ( and there are a lot of people who call themselves doms who are just in it for the ability to abuse people- they aren't true doms, just assholes) will take the time to get to know a sub before they agree to a scene or a relationship. There is a lot of risks involved for both parties.
2. I will agree that the dom in this manga was manipulative, there's no denying that. And I agree with you that the sub is completely clueless on the rules. In an ideal situation, the dom would have had a long conversation with the sub about what he expects and likes to do and would ask the sub about what he expects and likes and doesn't like. Could this manga happen in a real situation? Yes. Would the sub be ok at the end... depends on the person and exactly what happens.
3. /4. In a situation with a beginner sub who has never had a scene before- see #2. I think I already talked about this in another post (Not sure if it was in reply to you or someone else) BDSM is a lot about domination, the sub wants the dom to make him do things. So the sub will a lot of times protest half heartedly, to hear the dom reinforce the command- but that's for those who are aware of what they are. This was a first timer and like you said, vanilla before this happened. People who have a lot of experience in BDSM can read other people's body language and get a pretty good idea of whether that person is a top or a bottom, just by how they walk, how they hold their head, how they pass someone in an aisle. The way I'm interpreting this manga is that the dom could read that the 'vanilla' guy has sub tendencies and he wants to draw them out. Do I think he was right in the way he did it? Can't say, irl, there are so many more things to look at than the little they show in the manga.
5. If #2 had happened, then a safe word would have been agreed upon, or at least discussed. I have never had a safe word, but I always chose doms who were experienced. When I top, I am always watching the subs reactions and asking if they are ok. If their answer doesn't satisfy me, then we slow down or stop for a break.
6. We are talking totally different situations than rape.
7. To answer this fully would take a few paragraphs, but to summarize, consent is huge in BDSM. Safe, Sane and Consensual is the motto. There are about a million different levels of BDSM relationships.
If you want to email me here, I would be willing to discuss it more in depth with you and explain about the different levels and types of relationships. It can get a little complicated, lol.

If you are really interested in BDSM, I would love to talk with you more about it. Consent is vital to a healthy BDSM relationship. Communication is just as important.

I think in our discussions, we kind of went back and forth between real world stuff and fiction. A lot of people think that how things happen in mangas is how it happens in the real world, but this is just a work of fiction to entertain others, not to educate them on the lifestyle. I wouldn't trust what I read in mangas too much to educate me, or porn videos for that matter. Everything is catered to certain tastes, whether it's realistic or not.

I agree. The dom did take advantage of his indecisiveness. And legally, you are right, there is no gray area and if the initiator doesn't stop, then it's rape. No arguments there.

The dom took a risk that the sub would not call rape when everything was done and over with. Does that mean I think that what the dom did is ok or right? No, there should have been more communication and the dom shouldn't have used a gag on him to keep him from protesting.

IRL, there are things a sub can do to make sure they don't end up in this type of situation.

I have an issue with the friend who let the sub go home with a total stranger. Some friend.

There are a lot of people who have rape fantasies and I think this manga is geared toward them (like a lot of other manga on here).

Yes , I can completely get what you're saying . I personally enjoy many mangas even though there are illegal activities taking place that I wouldn't support irl . That's where people misunderstand my intentions , I have the tendency to criticise almost everything , whether I love or hate it . I think it's a healthy habit to not follow something blindly and think on one's own terms . I am not looking for a perfect manga , and I did enjoy this manga itself ! But my criticisms are just what I personally thought could have been done better ( to suit my tastes ) . That's about it .
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Oddly enough , I see some people actually taking this very seriously as BDSM and saying stuff like " it wasn't rape because ... " , that's when they enter into reality and that kind of gets on my nerves . Like enjoy this if you will , but don't try to justify everything about something you enjoy .
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P.s. - This manga is actually a guilty pleasure of mine . XD

Ah! I do that sometimes as well, usually after I've read it a few times, or watched the movie a few times. Then I start looking for all the little inconsistencies. And definitely a healthy habit to think for oneself. Too many times we just blindly believe what others tell us without thinking about it. I'll stop there, I could rant about that for hours!
I fell for this manga on a different website, that didn't have the English translation. Just looking at the drawings, I interpreted things a lot differently, and wrongly.

People seem to forget that these are fictional stories and get worked up for no real reason.

I've never understood the need to justify everything. I have bad habits and I don't make excuses for why I do them. I am into BDSM and I don't feel the need to justify it either. But I've always been the type of person who didn't really care what others thought of me, lol. Uhoh, I'm about to start philosophizing again... I'll shut up now.

Lmao , don't worry . I'm guilty of the same habits ... ~~
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Btw , I read the Rawls and I actually like the Dom a lot , even though there were some problems here and there . The expressions and the body language were such a turn on for me ! ⁄(⁄ ⁄·⁄ω⁄·⁄ ⁄)⁄