If you didn't know, the majority of yaoi readers are straight women, and a lot of them are young, and a lot are hella homophobic and fetishize gay sex.
For them, gay people do not switch around (which is the common way gay people have sex), and they must ascribed heteronomative bedroom 'rules' on them. Don't mind them, 'cause if you do, you'll lose your cool. I had to learn to let it go.
Wait, there's homophobic yaoi fans? Σ( ￣□￣||) How does that work?
I would love to know how does that work, too
surprise! most of yaoi writers are straight women with no clues of homosexual relationships. in japan even the lgtb community is subjected to the "old" myths of an extreme patriarchal society.
I believe that to be indeed true, but what does it have to do with being homophobic? If anything, they are only ignorant of the dynamic of homosexual relationships...
That has always bothered me as well, but by now I've realized that it's a common yaoi trope that is here to stay (and has been staying... for a really LONG while now). I not only prefer relationships where the main characters reverse their roles, but I also believe that that is the way those types of relationships would play out if those same characters were really in love with one another. And this is not to dismiss the regular old uke/seme notion, since I like many stories that play out that way. Since they're so prevalent, you can't escape them! ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Eureka! Oh I see now. It's all about assigning heterosexual bedroom roles to a homosexual relationship! Since in a heterosexual relationship there is a character that tops and another that bottoms (that's how it can only play out in these relationships, ya know...), they "assume" that's how it would also work out in a homosexual relationship - at least, those that aren't knownledgeable about how they really work IRL. Well, that got me thinking now (⊙…⊙ ) .
Agreed with the majority the comments here ^^
The answer to the "fujoshi and homophobic?" question is the same as "likes lesbian porn and homophobic?" question: having a fantasy doesn't exclude you from potential homophobic behavior. In fact, some troubles in yaoi actively encourage a certain close-mindedness when approaching real gay couples. Aka asking "who's the uke?" (same old as asking "who's the woman" in a gay relationship) or some s*** like that.
Someone finally said it!
What? Someone who is "homophobic" wouldn't be reading yaoi, they'd be disgusted... You all need to find another buzzword. That's like saying "some racists can view the other races as equals". Honestly, you all look like a hivemind group that actively got on here and decided to comment on the same manga as a social experiment... So, to actually answer the OP's question, it's not about "assigning" anything, the question itself completely defies that line of thinking, "which is which" implies they think both could either top or bottom. People just like to discuss which of the 2 in the couple came off as more dominant, especially when it isn't clear cut. I love how this is such a mystery to you people, when you have sex one of you is going to be penetrated so of course, when you're reading about sex you're going to wonder which person is taking which roll at least at the time. "who's the top" as a question doesn't "assign" anything.
Lol, my reply to you died when I realized you are probably a misogynistic troll. So...penetrating has to do with dominance now? I cannot. Lol
"So... Penetrating has to do with dominance?" Stretch before you reach, that's literally not what i was saying, but whatever is easier for you to argue right? :^D Anyways, "misogynistic"? Based on what, specifically? Not agreeing with you? Because that's all i've done. I haven't said anything about women. Also, kinda. Penetrating does kinda indicate dominance... Common sense. To be clear, i'm not saying that any time you penetrate or are being penetrated that you're submissive or the bottom, just that it's an indicator. A submissive person wont want to top, that's what submissive means.
No, it's like saying "you can be racist and have a black friend". Which is by the way a racist' favorite excuse. "I'm not racist, I have a black friend". "I'm not mysoginistic, I love my mum".
People reading yaoi don't usually like bara. What is more, people reading yaoi usually complain if the uke looks too "buff". God forbid a man looks like a man!
If the questions asked where about "who comes off as more dominant?" I wouldn't mind. The thing is it's usually "Who IS the uke?" Which is way less fluid. One: it assigns the verb "to be": it's something permanent. Second, it assigns certain characteristics to someone that per se wouldn't have to have them.
A submissive person won't want to top? That's just not true. And it's again heteronormativity. Look, even as a woman, I can be the one "calling the shots" in sex, even if I'm the one penetrated. It happens more often than not. If a man enjoys being penetrated and also thing up his partner, then what? And why isn't it possible?
Answer: it totally is possible, and actually in most gay relationships they switch and there's no magical barrier protecting the ass of the taller out of the two of them. But here in yaoi for some reason it doesn't happen. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Btw, sex is way more than penetration. One of the revindications of the gay collective was about anal sex being the end-all of the relationship, which is once again heritage of heterosexual relationships
I'll go down your response and respond:
1. The examples you gave here don't campare, those are examples of token users. What they had originally said was "homophobes read and sexually fetishize yaoi(gay sex)", this isn't a token, there is no one saying "oh i'm not a homophobe because i read yaoi". This is a case of people saying something just is what it isn't. Homophobes are repulsed by gays, not curious about them and they sure as hell wouldn't be reading manga about them. Again, they're using the wrong word. "homophobic" simply isn't right. "people who read yaoi don't like bara", there isn't a connection there, yaoi and bara aren't the same. Bara is a specific type of fantasy, its all beefcakes. You can like yaoi and not like bara. Two different things. A lot of bara are lacking in the story department, this is what turns me off about bara, i like the looks though. "people usually complain the uke is too buff", what? Where? Show me. I've literally never seen anyone complain the uke is too masculine, but i have seen plenty complain if the uke is too feminine. Again, "to be" the top or bottom doesn't "assign" anything, "to be" doesn't have any long lasting implications, you can "be" the bottom OR top for any period of time. As far as characteristics being assigned, how specifically? The question is "who do you think is top and bottom", this implies they aren't sure and could see either topping OR bottoming, otherwise they wouldn't be discussing it because it'd be obvious enough to know. They see both dominant AND submissive characteristics. When someone says they "think he'll top", they're just stating who they think is the more dominant person because, again, dominance is an indicator.
2. I'm sorry, but it really IS true, you're interchanging the word submissive with the action of bottoming. You can't be submissive and want to top while feeling submissive. It goes against itself. You CAN however go from being submissive to being dominant if something sets that in motion, say, if you were turned on. If you go in feeling submissive, you'll probably bottom unless something triggers your dominance and makes you want to top. The moment you go from thinking "i want him to fuck me" to "i want to fuck him" you're no longer submissive. "i can be the one calling the shots during sex", yeah, you'd be a dominant woman during those times. You go back and forward depending on the mood if you're okay with both, if you feel like "you want him to fuck you", you're submissive in that round of sex, vice versa.
3. I actually AM a gay man, i know all about how we have sex. I hope that number 2 cleared up what i meant, because you weren't understanding what i was saying. I DO agree that in yaoi there is an annoying amount of "if the guy is taller he's the top" situations, but don't you think that answees the question? "why do people want to know who's top and bottom?", because that type of yaoi is so prominent that when one isn't like that and it's actually difficult to decide it's exciting and gets people talking.
4. No, sex is penetration by definition. FOREPLAY is the rest. That is why rape is after penetration, but molestation before.
Compare, not campare* answers, not answees* Damn ps4 motion keyboard... ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Some of you seem to not understand that there are loads of people (usually straight women) who read and fetishize gay men and their relationships (they don't care about the plot or their actual relationship/development as people, just the sex) but if they actually meet someone who isn't a het they are grossed out. That's homophobia.
That's called denial, if they're watching gay porn or are interested in gay sex then they aren't homophobic... They interested, but feel wrong about their interest. Some places just aren't very accepting, if someone develops "questionable" tastes according to their environment they're going to hide it or blend in with the hate. Again, homophobia isn't a negotiation, it's not "oh, well they might just hate certain aspects", its what it is, hatred/fear of anything gay.
Lel sis, homophobic fujoshi is soooo fucking common. In fact I'm sure most of Japanese fujoshi are bunch of homophobics, just go see Japanese forum like nijimen, or hell... check fujoshi site like chil-chil; The most famous fujoshi's quote ever is freaking "BL is just fantasy"
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&hs=gZE&ei=HZPdWqSzPMLB0gTHpJn4Bg&q=”blはファンタジー”&oq=”blはファンタジー”&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i4i37k1.4485.7571.0.7998.2.2.0.0.0.0.156.257.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1j4.64.psy-ab..0.2.256....0.zGveXQBvQl8
Don't forget BL,GL,NL terms. Boys love, Girls Love, and Normal Love. https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1417663279
Just Ew.
I disagree with your definition of homophobia. I also think most people that are homophobic, racist, mysoginistic, etc, usually don't realize they are. They just "know" that "I'm not racist, but white people are usually better educated and thus deserve better jobs", or "I'm not homophobic, but dude, if you like me that's gross". A fuujoshi usually will be like "ohh they're gay that's so cute!! Who's the uke??" and that's objectification. It's not exactly saying that being gay is an illness, or beating you with a stick but it's definitely putting an etiquette of weirdness on gay behavior and approaching it weirdly. And I can name tons of examples in this same website.
Btw, that "they're interested, but feel wrong about their interest"... Have you ever heard about the term "internalized homophobia"? Most people will be like "yeah I have this gay friend I'm not homophobic" and then you heard the key sentence "I wouldn't like it if someone close to me was gay because what if they became interested in me???" (More common is the "they will have a difficult life" variation, which is even worse because it has a side of "it's for your own good" and "society is the bad one")
It isn't MY definition hon, it's THE definition. "an unreasoning fear or antipathy of homosexuals or homosexuality"-dictionary dot com. "homosexuality", as in the entire thing, not aspects. "internalized homophobia/misogyny/racism" aren't a thing, it's just racism/homophobia/misogyny. These are a mindset, a way of thinking, if you subscribe to these lines of thought, whether you realize it or not, you are -insert issue-. The example you gave of "internalized homophobia" isn't homophobia either, it's an example of, again, another token user. You can say the words "i have a gay friend, i'm not homophobic" and ACTUALLY not be homophobic. There is no better way to assure someone you aren't -insert issue- than by showing them you associate yourself with that group of people. If the guy saying that genuinely doesn't consider gays as a whole gross or distasteful, they aren't homophobic. They're just a token user using their token to avoid conflict with you because you just called them homophobic. If a guy says "i'm not homophobic, i have a gay friend", but on the inside he is grossed out by the "friend" and doesn't want to associate with him, he's a homophobe using a token to keep up appearances. If you notice, tokens can be used by anyone, homophobes included. An example of a, i guess, good(? Or normal?) token user would be those straight guys who have no issues talking to and befriending gays, but would rather not talk about gay sex because it makes them uncomfortable. If you were to tell this guy he's a homophobe he'd respond with "i have gay friends" because he knows he doesn't hate gays. Again, easiest way to convince someone you aren't against gays is to mention your gay friends. He will use his token to avoid conflict with you because he knows you're wrong, but would rather not argue. -i'll continue in the next message, dont want to lose what i've written-
Why are u people so obsessed with roles?
In sex people like to change things up. I don't understand the need to assign the "top" permanen etiquette in a manga such as this where it's not going to even be depicted. But even if it was —its not defining of their personality