Actually, I don't think it's the same.Tooru sleeps with Satoru because he likes him.Tooru doesn't refuse Satoru, he loves him.On the other hand, he refuses his mom with all his might but she still doesn't let go of him.Tooru does consider his sixth sin as sleeping with his bro and the seventh is with his mom, but I don't think he regrets his sixth sin and wish for it to stop, though he considers it a sin.If Satoru hadn't been his bro, he would perhaps not have considered it a sin.Satoru isn't taking advantage of his bro, he sleeps with him because he loves him and if Tooru falls in love with someone else in the future, I think Satoru would give up since he'd want Tooru's happiness.I don't think many would hate Satoru even if it were from the mother's POV since there are many who enjoy twisted manga.But if it were from the mother's POV, she'd have to start with "I hate my son, I force him to have sex with me, I don't let him go out of the house" and stuff like that which would make the readers still hate the mom but Satoru's version on the other hand is filled with love for his bro.He wants to take him away from that place.
Tooru is happy when he is having sex wih Satoru. Tooru is burdened to the point of crying when he is having sex with his mom. Satoru means well and wants Tooru to see the outside world again. Mom is ashamed of Tooru and forces him to never come out of the house. Even if he stutters and some people might make it harder for him because of that, I don't think it's better for him to never come out, do you? And about the sins, you're right. They have the same weight for Tooru but in the sense that he thinks he should be punished for them. It's him blaming himself and not the people he's doing it with, regardless if he is happy with one and burdened with the other. It's no measure of who's treating him better because it's Tooru's assesment of his self.
Now, I'm not saying the thing between the brothers is normal, great, totally fine, but I just want to be clear that this is a comparison between the mother's and Satoru's case.
I'm sorry, I'm going to be rude here for a bit. I get irked when people who come up with shallow conclusions act arrogant about it. You bet changing the point of view to the mother's given the same knowledge of the situation would put our sympathy on the mother and hate on Satoru? The point of view wouldn't change the simple conclusions I've stated above. Seriously, it's great that you're trying to consider different angles but you don't have to put out such an as-if-understanding-but-just-blind-on-some-areas remark just to show that you did try to consider other angles when some of us did too and still found that point of view isn't enough to justify the hatred on the mother's character.
If you reread my original comment, I never claimed the mother shouldn't be hated. Of course she should- she's an awful character the way the story's written. But (and this is where my opinion comes in to form my "shallow" conclusion), as we don't see anything from the mother's pov, we never actually see the reasons behind what she did, unlike in the brother's case, where he clearly expresses his love for Tooru.
If we saw the pain she went through, her inner turmoil when doing/saying those sorts of things to her son and maybe got a chance to see that she might not have meant any of it but said it out of anger, she wouldn't have been so despised. She'd still be a mean and shitty character, but not the same evil bitch we see here- like when a villain with a tragic past is less disliked. Most of the comments seemed to be painting Satoru as a hero or savior (at the time I read them) and I just didn't agree- I felt a large part of the reason we could sympathize with his character so much is because we got to see what he was thinking and how he felt during his interactions with his brother. If we hadn’t, I’m sure there would be a lot more comments condemning him for what he did. If you disagree, cool, your opinion is your own. If my comment read arrogantly enough to make you mad, my bad lol?
I've always strongly believed that a past does not give you an excuse, to act any way at all. I've also liked characters that were villains with a tragic past HOWEVER I do not condone their actions simply because of their unfortunate past.
You know in loveless? The MC mother is an abuser, she literally hits and burns her son, however it shows that she has "inner turmoil" as you say like she is thinking to herself stop it dont hurt him but she hurts him anyways. You know that never redeems her, even when she becomes nice and stops abusing her son. I still hate the fucking guts out of her, I don't care if she has turmoil, I don't care if she changes I fucking hate the bitch. Just like here :)
I completely understand- I feel that way too but I know tons of people who sympathize with a bad character with a reason for the villainy I guess? My issue was more with the brother- it's much easier to like someone when you can read their minds. But I guess I shouldn't have even posted the comment with all the trouble it caused -_-' lol
Well, whatever. Sorry for overreacting man. Just, pet peeves.
Uh, no. Just no. I don't want the "I have a terrible past" card playing here. And yeah, I guess you didn't say she shouldn't be hated but that wasn't the main thing I wanted to point out saying the whole thin. And fine, maybe you've skipped it, by my biggest concern was this - " Of course, it's awful that the mother forced Tooru but, to be honest, I don't think it's substantially different from what Satoru was doing."
Right and that line was my own opinion so I don't intend to change it. Like I said way above, they both took advantage of him only one did it out of love and the other...we don't really know since we never heard from her (I'd assume either hate or a very twisted love). I could look at their motivations but, since I don't actually know what the mother's goal was, I'm strictly looking at what they did and I didn't see a heaven and hell difference between them- at least not enough to warrant exalting Satoru while burning the mother at the stake.
But anyway, I've spent more time discussing this than I did actually reading it and I'm not one to keep a petty argument going so instead of just going around in circles...let's just agree to disagree? ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Yeah, sure. It's getting tiresome.
This became a wonderful debate of opinions where each person expressed themselves clearly and eloquently. You all wrote beautifully and I applaud your efforts. Whether on not you agree with each other in the end doesn't matter. Expressing your views is the point of debate. Everyone involved was a winner on this point. Good job.
i agree because he included that act with his brother as one of the 7 sins. Nice interpretation.
People seem to be mad at the mom and overlooking the fact that the younger brother, Satoru, is also fucking his older brother. Of course, it's awful that the mother forced Tooru but, to be honest, I don't think it's substantially different from what Satoru was doing. Both of them were taking advantage of Tooru; the mother took advantage of his inability to fight back while Satoru took advantage of his naivete and the fact that Tooru really had no one but him. If the story were written from the mother's POV and she found out about the brothers, everyone might be jumping down Satoru's throat instead.
I mean just think about Tooru's 7 sins: one is for sleeping with his brother, while the other is for sleeping with his mother. In Tooru's mind, there's no difference between the two- they carry the same weight.