Bruh Chill. It's a choice. You guys are pissed over nothing.

Ye some straight shiz sucks, but actually there are some good strong fem plots, some dont even have that much romance but just character development of the fl.

And i guess the reason why people are annoyed because they feel that their "safe place" is being raided, *sigh* but they just dont know how to express it without being a bitch.

You’ve put the words I’ve been mulling about and for that I shall like and follow leg8 though I’m really nescient of big, unfamiliar words so I’m reeeaally glad somebody’s said it now.

Though I’m doubtful some silly brainless idiots will understand this and perhaps still go out and about striking and being confuzzling. maybe.

Yeah, I can see that, and I know that there is some really good straight stories out there, I myself read some of the few that don't intrude too deep into the romance genre, e.x. 'The Villianesses Pet', ' Solo Leveling', and 'Remarried Empress.', but It did really piss me off that the people were putting down our likes because it intruded, especially since BL fans don't really do anything most the time when straight fans intrude on our space and call it disgusting, or say/imply that they should read more straight/ "normal" stuff because it is "natural." Although we do get left alone most the time, when it does happen we don't really do anything about it.

Your last sentence made me laugh, so hard, because it was such an accurate description of what people were doing in the comment section.

And to clarify, I don't hate them or dislike them but I still got really offended just like almost everyone. Mostly because I am so deep in the BL fandom, that I refused to read anything straight for 4 years because I just couldn't tolerate straight stuff because it was so boring and predictable. And thought of myself as very weird because people kept teasing me and putting me down for it.

Thanks for responding! And; Sorry if this is too long, you don't have to read it if you don't want to.

You really didn't have to follow, although I am still grateful that you enjoyed my explanation!

I have the tendency to go overboard with explanations, especially when I am offended, so I'm sorry that it was hard to understand.

And your last reply was probably the funniest thing I've heard all day, so thanks for that!

Thanks for responding, and for the follow! I will make sure to follow you back. (◕ᴗ◕✿)

just let them people be I guess, I mean I'm not into Bl but I don't attack people for their preferences. I do get annoyed when most people comment on mangas, etc about it not being Bl or it not being a straight romance, rather than talking about the story itself, but gatekeeping and attacking other people's preferences is another story.

As much as I enjoy yaoi, you cannot say that yaoi is just so vastly different than how most manga depict heterosexual relationships. Are you telling me that yaoi is such a groundbreaking genre that somehow manages to break through the pitfalls that plague hetero romance manga??? Cause if so, I whole heartedly disagree with you. Yaoi has some of the most toxic relationships I have ever seen, not to mention how the more feminine man is always denoted as the uke and a lot of time is forced into the same gender stereotype as women are in hetero manga. The only difference is that there's isn't oversexualization of the MC that is in hetero manga. That is not to say that yaoi doesn't do this to it's character, but there's more of it shown in hetero manga.

Now I can understand that people would be annoyed by fans of bl coming onto a hetero manga comment section and complaining about it not being BL, just like anyone would if a someone seeking a straight relationship comments such thing on a BL comment section. I don't think anyone should comment about their dislike of something because they're upset that its not their desired relationship. People shouldn't be harassed about their preferences however, I also don't think a vegan should go to a bbq restaurant and complain that there's only meat? You see how silly that is. If one is disappointed by the misleading tags, then I get it. I clicked on it too thinking it was yaoi, but soon understood it wasn't after reading the 1st chapter. I continued and I actually like the story.

Anyway, the point of this long ass response is that Bl and straight manga have very few differences that separate them to the point that makes it better than the other. Bl portrays shitty ml much as hetero manga do, and woman/feminine characters can both be ditzy, stupid, and "strong-willed who [are] very weak-minded". I don't think those are traits defined by their sexuality, just traits defined by their perceived roles in a relationship.

Then you haven't looked deeper yet, as a straight reader, I've seen some good straight romance

Okay, so where to start.,

Yaoi and Straight content aren't even comparable because they are two entirely different genres. I am not saying that Yaoi is so much better than it, I am just saying that it provides so much more in terms of emotional and metaphorical sense. (Where in my explanation did I say that it was so much better? All I had done was provide examples and ideas that point to Yaoi solving some of the glaring pitfalls of straight content, while still having it's own more subtle ones.)

The vast majority of straight content has been made with a specific stereotype in mind, whether it be conscious or subconscious. Straight content was also made with the intention to spirit a person away into the perfect world, where there are no conflicts and the female lead or y/n has a hot man who will fight for her no matter what. I find that slightly problematic because it is a recipe for disaster, and will result (in a small percentage) in women thinking that they won't have to do anything in order to get a hot man drooling over her, and will make her presumtuous in every sense of the word, and In other cases it will turn into a woman being a pushover daydreamer that won't do anything for herself in order to get that perfect daydream. Anyways, that is still a small percentage of women. The vast vast majority turn out fine, but it is still kind of crazy that it can happen.

The very first romance novels were most likely created by daydreaming women, and men who wanted women to remain in that subservient place for years and decades.

Yaoi solves the latter problem by the fact that the vast majority do not ship themselves with hot characters, because they are obviously gay, and because they have a male partner. Instead we ship them with other males. There are no notions of getting together with a character because they are most likely taken, and there wasn't a chance for any females in the first place.

I absolutely love that yaoi covers pretty much everything that straight content gets scared off of! Like seriously they cover sooooooooo many different squeamish topics that it keeps the reader grounded, on edge, and shocked.( In a good way of course) It provides the reader with a massive chunk of reality and level-headedness as to the ways of the world.

Although I will concede with the shitty ML stuff, because I have come across a few ML with a shitty personality and actions, but yaoi somehow manages to make it different very time. (As well as the fact that there are tws and different tags when the ml is slightly shittier than the usual comfort parameters) Which leads me to my next part: Originality and personality.

~MAIN POINT~ |
V
I've had to stop reading so many straight books and shows because it honestly disgusts me with how fucking predictable and pathetic it is and can/will become. I quite literally become tired of straight people. With yaoi there are so many different personalities, ethnicities, cultural differences, and even personal styles (Hair color, eye color, clothes, etc.).

The straight side of things has been sooooo worn down and wringed for content an differences that even the stuff that is out of the box has been done and is awkwardly predictable in the worst way because of the comparisons being from completely different things and making no sense when stringed together to get a conclusive answer as to the origins of the original plotline. So there isn't a really big huge problem with it, except for a few smaller details, but still. It has just been around the ringer one too many times, and really does not have anything really to offer except for cliche daydream material. And the only real reason that is has survived until now has been the introduction of genre combos like romance and comedy, or romance with realism and LGBTQIA+.

Yaoi just provides a new outlet of content and originality that has (almost) never been seen before and is therefore not predictable most the time. A breath of fresh air if you will.

And a little psa, I am a raging pan sapiosexual feminist that believes starkly and passionately in basic humanitarian morals with a nasty temper streak that tends to get me in trouble more often than not. I also really hate gendered things and stereotypes so much that I will literally yell at people if they even dare to fucking say that "men should never cry", and "women should play with barbies and become housewives." So pardon me if I got a little heated.

Anyways, it's late Valentine's Day when I am writing this, so happy Valentine's Day!!! (●'◡'●)ﾉ ╮(￣▽￣)╭

Let's go step-by-step here.

Straight content and Yaoi are indeed comparable. Yaoi literally just denotes a manga that focuses on the relationship between gay men that deal with more adult themes in comparison to Shounen Ai, nothing more and nothing less (it a sub-genre of Shoujo). Straight content would literally be anything that is considered romance less it be tagged with either Yuri or Yaoi. At the end of the day, what the tag signifies is the type of relationship that is being focused on. Legitimately, outside of the sexuality of the characters what is difference between yaoi and any other romance manga? Now I can agree with you when you say that romance manga/novels were created by some woman's/man's fantasy of a perfect relationship, but again, Yaoi follows that exact same formula. Yaoi was created as a means for women to write and draw their own fantasies about men. Yaoi is literally an acronym that means to focus on the sexual relationship opposed to romance. Anyway, the stereotypes you bash hetero manga for also plagues yaoi, so I don't see how it fixes any of the problems that are found in the former. Often times, the uke of a story is made to be more feminine then their partner and takes on the mantle of the role that woman would have in any other manga. There are a plethora of stories where the MC (often the uke) is shown to be the damsel-in-distress, weak-willed, ditzy, and incapable of doing anything without their partner's help. However, this is somehow different because it's two men and instead of a man and a woman. I beg to differ.

Also, you cannot blame fiction for the way a minute amount of women may act. If you're a child, then maybe, however, if you're a young woman who believes that what happens in a fictional world will happen to you in reality, then that is purely on you. You can fantasize being in a similar situation, that is what fiction and the imagination is for, but to somehow change your perception of the world to the point of changing your persona to match it is absurd. That's like making the argument that video games makes people violent. It solely depends on the person and to blame the medium is unfair to the work and everyone else who partakes in it. In relation to people shipping characters, that is solely an enjoyable pass time, and even then some women ship themselves with their favorite character regardless of sexuality. Shipping is a sub-culture of a fandom where people find joy in writing fiction, drawing, or etc about their ships. Shipping completely ignores all existing or non-existing relationship in a story to match the person's own preference and even this can twist a person perceptions.

Again, you do know that hetero manga is considered everything that is tagged with romance that isn't yaoi/shounen ai or yuri/shoujo ai, right. I won't say that there aren't stereotypes that persists in hetero, because they do, such as the one you've already mentioned. However, you cannot sit here and say that out of all the hetero manga out there, none of them branch off into different territory. If so, then you have confined yourself to only a small section of the hetero romance genre. It's not solely about high schooler being in high school. There are plenty that deal with heavy topics such as abuse, women's role in society, bullying, and etc. I just can't fathom how a change in sexuality somehow changes the topic/content that an author can come up with. If you want to say that it add another complex aspect of having a gay character live in a society where being gay is not openly accepted then yes, that makes for an interesting story. Too bad only a few yaoi manga decide to delve into it outside of mentioning it in passing. Half the time this notion is forgotten when the MC finally gets with the ML.

Speaking of tropes, can we discuss the tropes that heavily plague Yaoi? Like the constant rape that often leads to a romantic relationship with their rapist and is then brush aside, no longer to be mentioned again as they live their happy lives? Does it not matter because they're gay? Does that only occur in hetero manga as well? Rape is such a rampant thing in yaoi that it literally has become a trope in the genre. At this point in time, I would be surprised if I'm reading a yaoi manga where there is no rape or sexual assault of it's main character, or, if there is, they treat it as detrimental and harmful as it is. Also shitty ML seems to be a trope as well, but I think we both agree on that. However, putting someone in a different environment doesn't change the shittiness of the ML does it? Shitty ML are still terribly whether in fantasy, sci-fi, or whatever the setting of the manga is. Who want to see someone be abused all for the sake of creating a shitty character that will be forgiven by the end of it all?

- Intermission-

I get that. It can be annoying to read something that is predictable. However, yaoi does not avoid those pitfalls. I've read the genre so much, I can bet you that it will often follows these guidelines: MC is an ordinary person > MC somehow comes into contact with extremely hot guy (never not a hot guy) > MC and Hot guy get close to each other > Hot guy sexually assaults MC who gives weak resistance (80% chance of this happening) > Prior scene is ignored and they love each other > Some misunderstanding or lack of communication causes some forced conflict between the two Introduces a rival character (one or both of these are bound to happen) > the two make up and live happily ever after. Rinse and repeat. You can literally take this same scenario and describe a hetero manga. There isn't much different unless the key formula of romance changes. Legitimately in some cases, not most, yaoi is a re-skin of hetero manga directed at a different audience.

The reason hetero-romance has survived because there's a huge market for it. There will always be a market for it, and that's why people will continue to consume it. Romance sells, that's why it's still as large at it is. Also, manga is anime drawn in panels. There all gonna have weird elaborate hairstyles, clothes, and colors as it is the defining features of the art style so I don't get this point. Speaking of ethnicities, there are plenty in both, however, majority of them depict them as stereotypes. Someone from the middle-east is going to be depicted as either a prince or an oil-tycoon. American? No worries, you're a suave handsome blonde who is very charismatic and intelligent. If you're African, then you're hailing from some tribe who has come on some study abroad or something along those lines (I have read one where it was an exchange student from Kenya which, I think, was pretty good). Do all yaoi (manga in general if we're being honest here) depict them as stereotypes? No. Are they problematic? Yes. It's astounding how prevalent they are especially when they are in an urban setting.

If you prefer yaoi or hetero manga, that's fine. However, you seem to generalize the entirety of a genre while neglecting to see the similarities between the two which is somewhat hypocritical.

It's fine, I don't think you were heated. We are two adults (I assume) having a discussion about something we don't agree on, so say what you gotta say with no hard feelings. No worries over here.

Happy Belated Valentines Day. (●￣(ｴ)￣●)ノ

PS: I think my original point was that people shouldn't come to a hetero manga and downgrade it for something like the characters not being gay. Judge something based on its plot and storytelling, not on it's predominant sexual relationship.

So basically, I really don't want to write a long ass response again. So I'll try to make it simple.

First off, I meant they aren't comparable because while they are in the same romance type theme, they talk about two opposite sides of that spectrum. Like I said before, in the original post, yaoi itself was made as a safe space for females to get away from standards and gender-typical roles as well as the fact that it was also made to NOT represent real life gay relationships (very big point there, a lot of people can back me up on that one), straight content however, has an element of reality in your life. To put it simply, yaoi is a purely fictional genre, and while straight content can be fictional (and it is a lot of the time) it still holds some sort of reality in your life.

Secondly, I do agree that there are still stereotypes in yaoi stuff, and I see it a lot. However I do still think that it is a little subtler that straight content.

Okayyyy, so when I say yaoi, I mean like all of the genres in LGBTQIA stuff. Shounen ai, etc. I'm not just thinking about all of the smutty ones. My bad for not specifying it.

And yes. A lot of the smutty ones are redundant and not for the faint of heart, but you keep bringing up rape and the like, which doesn't really make any sense to me because it is literally one of the smallest categories of smutty yaoi. I have encountered enough of those to fit below 10. I mean sure there are other ones and kinks or whatever that kind of fit in that same category, but still. I feel like the most popular yaois misrepresent the entire yaoi category, ex: Killing stalking, painter of the night, etc. It seems like you are making generalized statements based on the most popular stories, because it seriously isn't like that at all.

About the trope thing that you mentioned, that is one of the most generalized and fuzzy on the details description that I have seen regarding tropes, and it in no way can describe more than half (majority) of the stories. I've literally read more than 900 books (with proof) in the past year within the yaoi or shounen ai category, and I still can not see that. The bottom top stereotype thing too is still a barebones description. There are so many other stories without the "typical" top bottom stereotype and it is absolutely wonderful that the amount of diversity is so far above straight content that the genre itself can't dream to catch up.

Tell me, how many stories, shows, or whatever that you have seen in straight fiction that manage to break free of a stereotype? Have they had the woman step up and take charge? Has she had an initial love Interest that the woman chose to get away from because she could see that he wasn't right for her and was toxic? In a purely romance tagged show? Has the woman ever been rich? Has she done anything for herself? Does she have some sort of tragic backstory?

Whoops I accidentally posted that early,

Whoops I accidentally posted that early, before I was finished.

I have also read some awesome straight romance that doesn't delve too deep into the relationship. Like Remarried Empress, The Emperor and Female Knight, The Beginning After the End, etc. So please do not tell me that I haven't delved deep enough, because even the most well written stuff annoys me.

Have you read the lady and the beast yet? Awesome shit

I completely agree with you on the last paragraph, and I myself do judge on plot and often it's art style (and word count and eloquency when it comes to books.) Others don't and that really isn't my fault, ya know? Although it still does bother me.

However, I too greatly dislike those people who came in here and said that they wish it were gay because that's literally one of the main reasons why we get hate, but a lot of the people in here we're confused as to why there was a yaoi related tag in the tags section. So they were were in their rightful place to comment on it and get the misunderstanding fixed.

Right now I'm still trying to take in that "Hypocritical" part. I do see that I was talking about straight content based off of my perceptions of it, and am really not qualified to talk about it, so I guess kind of disregard it, because looking back at it I really had no idea what in terms of specifics and meanings I was talking about. I only really talk about the bad things and generalize because I have never experienced that genre and never will, because it is such a big sore spot for me. I have, however acknowledged that there are similarities, and that yaoi goes about showing them slightly more subtly that straight content in my previous responses so please do not call me hypocritical, it was unwarranted, unwanted, and unfounded.

About the market thing- Well yeah, of course there will you don't need to tell me, but every genre runs out of ideas sometimes, and they just need some outside genres to combine in order to get somewhere instead of stagnating.

Please look back at all the times that you looked at my responses and assumed the meaning behind them and ran with it, and I can guarantee that I did not say anything of the sort (Take my words at face value). Just because you assume that I am meaning something it doesn't mean that I am. So just keep that in mind.

Brief intermission, to bemoan stereotypes and genders because there is not a single combination of words in any language to describe how humanity has fucked up as soon as they decided to put so much stock in gender stereotypes.

AnYwAyS- This will probably go on forever if we don't stop it so this will be my second to last response. Imma sleep now, good night XD.

Not only that but yaoi/BL often times fetishizes mlm relationships and is written be straight women for straight women which is an issue. I tend to avoid BL everywhere except on Line Webtoon because I don't feel like dealing with fetishization. It just feels icky to me as a bi woman. I also avoid lots of wlw everywhere except Line too because lots of times it's just built for the male gaze. You gotta really hunt through every genre to find truly good stuff.

100% agree with you here. I've just decided to agree to disagree with the Op and the general topic of this post. But yeah, I totally understand what you're saying and think that every genre has an abundance of nonsensical and problematic works in them and you just gotta search for the good ones.