a.martian.named.mars's Topics (5)

┑(￣Д ￣)┍I am pretty sure that a fantasy-type of plot twist won't be coming no matter how much we wait

honestly I get your annoyance and that you feel like your ethnicity and/or race has been insulted, but I'm pretty sure it was not implied that these guys are Native Americans, more like a random made up and secluded tribe in the middle of nowhere.

They don't even mention that this was somewhere in North or South American ground, but on a random island. Sure, it's based on the existence of Native American tribes, but it's more about having the fantasy of someone with those characteristics. Kind of like Mink from DMmd, I guess.

I don't think it's reason enough to go from annoyed to angry as fuck or to take this much insult from it. You don't see anyone from Middle Asia taking that serious offense from all the stories about "Arabian-ish" or "Indian-ish" princes who take random ukes captive and all that jazz, because it's always a made up country with fictional rules and people only the "charming, foreign" elements that can create a fictional setting that someone can fantasize about applied.

That being said, I do get your annoyance, given your culture's history of being misrepresented by media and literature, but in this case they are not even mentioning any relevance to Native Americans, so I think that since the mangaka is careful enough not to do that, you could cut her some slack.

I've also been phased with people linking me to weird stereotypes about my culture and my country (and the jokes, oh man the jokes), not to your extend certainly, but I get where you are coming from.

And FYI to everybody out there, there is no "Lutah" tribe. It doesn't exist. It is a bastardization of the Utah Tribe which are a plains horse-back nation and proudly helped the Apache's win back lost lands that had been stolen from the invading Europeans. So yeah, that's the history lesson for today. Peace....

I can see how this manga struck a cord with you and agree with everything you have said. I don't think she's trying to depict First Nations people though and it seems to be more some type of uncontacted indigenous tribe like, for example, the Sentinelese people from the indian ocean.

anyway, It is def disheartening to see your culture depicted poorly in media and in manga and Ive seen it a lot with my culture as well so I def understand. I have ended up avoiding reading a bunch of mangas sometimes for this reason.

People from the other cultures do cry out about the misrepresentation which is why political correctness is such a major thing now. However, my people are constantly misrepresented and even when we do speak up, nobody gives a flying rats bum about it. It's annoying and it upsets me greatly! I read manga and yaoi for various reasons but primarily because the plots is substantially better than the tripe being served up in shoujo's. But how am I supposed to enjoy or even tolerate something like this when my very roots are being mocked? Telling me to ignore it is the same as me turning around, writing a manga that uses every Japanese stereotype in the book and then tells the people "well it's fictional so it's not a big deal. It was all made up." No, that is not okay. And if you are saying you sympathize, then you too know that it is not okay. I tolerate a lot of rubbish by way of ethnocentrism but damn it, we aren't anything remotely close to what is shown here. At least Disney tried to some degree but Enzou just went and said "Nope! I don't care, I'll do what I want."
And saying that the mangaka is from Japan and does not fully understand the Indigenous people is also not an excuse because I know plenty of writers that spend extensive time researching the cultures they are writing about. My close friend "Lori" (she'd kill me if I leaked her actual name) just released her own manga at last years Anime Expo and it was about a native tribe of Pacific Islander's. She did not travel to the place but she researched it and fact checked everything. So there is no reason why a successful mangaka such as Enzou cannot provide the same courtesy.

Welp this snowballed. Honestly i think that because the author has nooo experience with natives, its not unreasonable to use stereotypes (even offensive)

Thank you 5t3L for that supportive comment. It's really hard because the way these stereotypes continue to persist is because of things like this. My people have gone through so much hardship and we still get back up and move on. But it hurts when we are faced with ignorance like this. I understand that Enzou is not familiar with the culture like I am but, if that is the case, then the mangaka shouldn't have risked writing a potentially offensive story. I am a journalism major and there's a saying "If you don't know, don't put it in print." That saying holds true to any publication where ethnicity is involved and well, Enzou did not come out of this one on top. The mangaka I can tell has a fascination with the Indigenous Americans which I appreciate. What I do not appreciate is that we are once more being down-classed to dense under developed people who are present for the sol purpose of being eye candy. Everyone needs to stop romanticizing the Indigenous Americans because it is one of the things we hate most. We are not all rippling with muscles (men) or slender with long hair (women). We are normal human beings that just so happened to run faster across the Land Bridge than our European siblings. Ain't nothing sexy, mysterious, or romantic about it. But that wouldn't make a "smexy" story for readers here so artists dip into stereotypes.... >____< Anyways, thank you again for the support. I know a great deal of Enzou supporters (which normally I am one of) are already hating me for my comments. But I just can't stand it anymore. I'm sick of the feathers, war paint, and peace pipe rubbish. (:-/

I don't know enough english to discuss this matter the way I want to, so, simplifying things: nowhere says this native is american.
I'm agree with things kattcleo said. Being sincere, I never thought the indigenous could be native american, in fact I was thinking in some other tribes like Polynesian people and that.
Everyone has stereotypes of everyone, and if we all go mad everytime we know them, our life is going to be shorted xD
I know you may be burned by all the things native Americans suffered but, come on, this is something I call 'author concessions'. Why she can't imagine anything she wants if it is fictional? ╮(￣▽￣)╭
Well, all the fiction you can get in a yaoi based in human life / societies in a planet named earth. You know.

dude. first of all, chill your balls. I don't really know much about your culture I'm afraid, but I do know that:

1) from what I remember Disney has one movie about Pocahontas, which is based on events from way in the past, also a movie I loved as a kid, but it is really inaccurate historically speaking since John Smith, who she hooks up with, was an old man irl who talked about that dramatic scene where the real Pocahontas saved him and from what I remember some people said that that's not what really happened either but he wanted to turn it into a better sounding story to make people in England like her more, that movie is also not about it being accurate, but more about proving a point and teaching young kids about prejudice and the etc.

2)older movie with N.As, Peter fucking Pan, also has a live action. Extremely stereotypical "indians" with princess Tiger Lily and everything. Like you said, no one cared even if they should, but it was based on a book of a time when people thought of N.As like that in England, way before the Disney movie and they were at the end of it inhabitants of a fictional island where children's fantasies lived, so I guess it's fine.

but you can't tell me that you can compare THOSE representations to a freaking yaoi. Honestly, did you complain like this with Razoku no Hanayome, because with your logic that one was also insulting, or were you like "oh I guess these guys are in a tropical jungle and they are blond so all is ok"??? Because like I said, THERE IS NO MENTION of that guy having ANY relation with Native Americans, he's from a random island in the middle of WE DON'T EVEN KNOW. NO ONE is talking about Native Americans. NO ONE. Disney even calls the Peter Pan tribe Indians and you are actually comparing that depiction with someone who is trying to avoid showing ANY RELATION WHATSOEVER. She's deriving the fantasy element only. I once was offended when I was 15 because there was this shoujo manga that had the heroine in my country, except suddenly everybody was blonde and filthy rich everywhere. Then again, I was 15, now I give 0 fucks about it.

Again, my country and culture has a lot less of a history in being wrongfully depicted,but now this is getting out of hand, wtf? This is a yaoi manga, get a grip. I'm not even sure you read my whole post before. I said to cut her some slack, not that I fully understand her or anything, Japan is afterall a very homogeneous country so I've seen some pretty absurd and ignorant stereotypes of foreign cultures in it.

Oh by the way, I didn't press the annoying button on your posts, I'm having a civilized argument here and that would be petty. Also like I mentioned I do get where you are coming from, since NAs false representation by media and literature has sparked my interest before so I had read a few stuff about it. Anyway, I'm muting this, have a nice day.

The apparel that the "native" is wearing is almost a replica of the Midwest plains people, like no joke it is close. And I understand that it is fiction but why can people get upset at movies but not manga? Why can award shows be boycotted and that's okay but the moment I get upset because my heritage is being slandered, I'm suddenly the target of everyone's hate. That just isn't right where I come from.
But I thank you for being courteous and for stating your position in such an eloquent manner. You may say that you don't know enough English to say what you want to properly but you did and you did it very well. So kudos to you. :-]

Dude, I never said or believed you pressed the annoying button on my posts and even if you did, that's your opinion. And you don't have to come and attack me with your words like this. And for the record, Hawaii is an island in America so it's a possibility. But even if it wasn't an American people, it is still messed up.
I am not saying I agree with Disney and I know the story of Pocahontas because she belongs to the Algonquin nation like the Monacan people do so no need to try to school me here. I'm already schooled. And I never really liked Peter Pan because my Grandma Nuttah told me it was garbage early on as a child, so I never had a choice in that one.
Whether it is yaoi or music or movies, so level of respect should be shown. The indigenous people of the Amazon are regularly visited by tourists as are the people in New Zealand, Australia, and Polynesia. They know what cell phones are (whether or not they use them is a different story), they have schools, and they know what cars and plans do. If this were a story about a native on a foreign exchange program that had trouble adapting to the Japanese lifestyle, that would be something else entirely. I would actually read that. But it isn't. This is a spread sheet of stereotypes that indigenous people everywhere have worked hard to disperse. The fact that everyone is telling me I am wrong for feeling the way I do is bogus. If I insulted your culture you would be upset. Why can't I be then? The only reason this got out of hand is because everyone and their mother is telling me that I have no right to be upset when in reality, I do because whether it be First People of America or the Maori people in New Zealand, we all share the same stigma and we are all told to keep our mouths shut and not complain.
We can have a civilized conversation, I would love to because then there wouldn't be so much shade being thrown (not by you but whoever is hating on these comments). But people get defensive and don't want to listen to the truth when it is being said. We all love Enzou here, that's why I read the manga in the first place. But I am experiencing something different while reading this than you are because I come from a different culture than you do. That doesn't mean that I am any better but it does mean that as a person within that depicted minority, I reserve the right to feel upset when an indigenous people are shown in the wrong light.
Can we at least agree on that?

Just wanted to back you up, Martian. It really doesn't matter whether the mangaka meant well, or whether we're in the realms of fantasy, or whether folks want to dismiss your concerns. Stereotypes about race are part of the ongoing history of how racism works, and this manga, and Disney, have the racial stereotypes that have helped justify genocide in the Americas. Oh well. History is so... unforgiving.

Where is that damn like button when you need it?! Uggh. Anyways, thank you so much Mischiefgrrl. That comment of yours really hit me right where I live. You so eloquently said exactly what I have been struggling to say! It is really sad that my people and those first tribes of other countries have had their culture reduced to sexy halloween costumes and whatnot but it helps to meet/speak with people like you who don't tolerate that sort of behavior easily. So yeah, thank you so much! You rock. (≧∀≦)

Aw thank you, I'm trying my best polishing my english ^ω^

I can't talk about the mask, for me is like a tiki one D: (more stereotypes?  huh)
And, I'm not telling you you can't get upset. Do it if you feel it, it can't be helped cos is a sensible topic for you. But you opened a public thread writing your opinion, so, all kind of people is going to write an opinion. All types of opinions.

Btw I'm not hating you or else. Just respecting your opinion and debating it :P

But sorry, I  don't feel your heritage is being slandered because we are talking about an anonimous native here. Is a fictional work with fictional natives who resembles real natives around the world. It needs that resemblances to look 'real'. I think that's all.

Look, time ago I read a manga based on 'spanish costumes' in, like, XVII century? It was full of stereotypes, concepts were wrong and even the mc had errors xD I found it mostly funny, taking it with humour. Not telling you need to do the same, but this things are going to happen, always, because always we're going to find someone who didn't do the homework properly x)

The matter about not knowing technology and that is purely for the yaoi, for build the story and develop the romance. Is kinda cliche if you think it xD it could be done in another way? Yeah, but ╮(￣v￣;)╭


And, being sincere again... I don't like tourist interrupting the life of natives of the few still follow their ancient style. Is... Irrespective. Also, I hate how some tribes sell itself for tourist making spectacles about their dances and religion. That has no pride. I know is hard for them to survive in this society of now, but still... is your heritage, don't sell it. Don't know if I'm explaining well :(

Sorry for the messy grammar lolol.

"But sorry, I  don't feel your heritage is being slandered because we are talking about an anonimous native here. Is a fictional work with fictional natives who resembles real natives around the world. It needs that resemblances to look 'real'. I think that's all."
Ugh I think i didnt explain this part properly D:
Dont want you to take it in the wrong way, like all the natives around the world are people who don't know what is a plane. Damn. This is why I hate discuss in languages I don't know perfectly xD

Obake-chan you don't ever need to apologize to me for your grammar. You are doing well and can casually converse with me on a conversational level. Be proud of yourself! Learning a foreign language is not an easy thing to do. So again, kudos and thumbs up to you. (=・ω・=)

As far as this whole thread, yes I am aware that I opened myself up to this but I was not expecting such harsh backlash for supporting my own culture and defending my heritage. I understand that the world is messed up but it's a letdown that those in developed countries have to be so rude and whatnot (not you of course).
But whatever, I am over it. People can say what they want just as I can say what I want because the public forum allows us that freedom. And even if people are disrespectful to me, I have no cause to be that way towards them because I don't know those people at all.

I said what I wanted and I let it be known that this depiction of indigenous people is wrong. What the internet does with my words after this is a whole other story. So we'll have to stay tuned I suppose. LoL.

And fyi, I agree with you on tribes selling themselves short. They should not turn their culture into a spectacle but with the current economic situations in some countries they may not have a choice but to open up to tourists. It's sad but that's the world we are in. Maybe someday things will change. Fingers crossed! (:-]

The manga says he is from an Island not America. The head of the Uni. found him in the Village and brought him to the college to be educated. There are many Islands in south east Asia with people on them that would meet the needs of this story. Many underdeveloped to this day, Vanuatu being one. Lutah prob. a madeup word. to fit the story. New Guinea tribe men still some times wear their war paint when in town. So it depends on where you are. This is a made up story,it is all in the eyes of who reads it is it not?

Yup. The Ainu people in Hokaido, who were only recognized as a people in 2008, but lived in Japan since before the Yamato people... and who were driven into Hokaido by colonists... slaughtered by the shogunate and had 20th century Japan try to stamp out their language and deny their history... yeah. My bad. Globally, stereotypes about tribal people contribute to their genocide and political disenfranchisement. My bad.

Apologizing for hitting the "annoying" post button - having trouble scrolling

Agreeing with the posts about offensive stereotyping not being the authors intention and that it does not specify any direct line to anything. Fiction is fun. People in general stereotype as a way for our brains to categorize things etcetera etcetera.

Anyway fun comments so far, rarely comment myself unless feel absolutely necessary to do so. Always find these moments intriguing XD Fun conversations--

This whole conversation has gotten rather strange hasn't it. Haha. I just posted a comment in the heat of the moment because I couldn't stand what I was feeling. And now here we are how many comments later having casual banter back and forth, discussing world cultures like coworkers at a coffee house. LoL. The internet is a strange place indeed and how. (≧∀≦)

lol. To be honest I just respected your opinion as you made solid arguments so I didn't want you to think badly of me by thinking I pressed it... >_>
Well, after taking a step back and cooling my head (where the mute button helps), I didn't mean to come off like I am attacking you, sorry if you felt that. You have every right to feel mad as someone directly into the spotlight by this, yes it's true I can't see things from your POV, and I'd like to think I have every right to disagree. Again, thanks for the argument.

before I say anything else, I just want to put in that I'm not looking for a fight, most of the things I ask are out of genuine curiosity or confusion, so please don't think I'm trying to be rude.

(be gentle I'm just trying to understand)

so, on one side, I can see your point. on the other, it doesn't make much sense...? I say this because it would be understandable if they had made jokes and verbally disrespected Native Americans and such in the manga, however, it's not meant to be disrespectful. but I'm quite confused... are you upset that they made him seem like a cave man not knowing about technology, or maybe that it seemed like they were sexualizing his race? I can understand a bit then.

but... in the end it's just a fictional story. I mean there are stories with dragons and other realms and unicorns, all made up. this could have been set in another universe, who knows?

also, stereotypical misunderstandings in fiction are near the bottom of the "messed up things in bl manga" list, to be honest. not that it's not bad, it's still on the list, but it's not as bad as abuse being love or normalizing rape. ugh.

well, in conclusion, I'm just really confused. you might be right and I'm just being an ignorant American, I don't know, but either way, I humbly respect your opinion. (also wow at the people being so aggressive, it's not like you said the manga was garbage, chill.)

I love the comments on mangago. I can't say that of anywhere else on the net! Only complaint is that the "annoying" button can't be unpressed. I'm on my phone! I'm always hitting the wrong button.

But you go, Katt and Martian. Having the big postcolonial theory conversation like graduate students in a Starbucks. (Pats self on back.)