Kanye West

Agreed. While I do appreciate some tropes such as smaller, cute ukes, I don't get upset when something goes unexpectedly. In fact, I don't always expect anything (unless primed for it by the mangaka). I don't understand why other fujoshi get so worked up about who tops and bottoms.

yeah lol it's just bizarre to me. i'm sure i'm gonna rustle ppl's jimmies but i feel like lots of BL fangirls do some weird projecting... and hate their own gender. it's sad.

and obviously there are some awesome BL fangirls! but it's always the crazies who are the loudest, so it kind of feeds into why they have a negative reputation.

Sorry, wanted to give a big thumbs up, but my big thumb was clumsy and hit thumbs down. I agree with every word you wrote. My brother - 6'4"/250# - is an exclusive bottom... His lover - 5'9"/195# is an exclusive top. There are no guidelines or molds to fit into in real life. In defense of the mangaka who write yaoi, the stereotypes help their target audience - hetero females - relate to the characters. Most Japanese women know few gay Japanese men and would be lost by reading about relationships from a gay perspective. Nanao Bohra has more "realistic" characters than a lot of other mangaka. You may like her works.
As a fan of "fun in the backyard", I agree... bottoms deserve way more credit for being strong. That shit hurts... no pun intended.

i like naono bohra too, i think denki was one of the first BL manga I read actually! shes good, except i find fantasy manga a bit tough to get thru so I havent tackled those stories of hers yet.

yep i know a lot of couples like ur brother and his s/o. and i'm not saying that heteronormative gender roles are nonexistent in the LGBT community - u'll see more twinks who bottom and more bears who top - but they're certainly not as widespread as yaoi manga would have ppl think.

i get so conflicted about BL sometimes. I've read some really great stories and know lots of female allies/bi girls who are awesome BL fans. But it feels like some BL fangirls want to project themselves onto the "ukes"... which would be fine if the standard seme being mega-aggressive, controlling, and violent and the standard uke being a wilting flower. Oh and any female competition being an evil witch. I realize that yaoi caters to women though so maybe its not my place to talk, but is this really the type of relationship BL fans want? Is this really how they see other women? Sorry for this D- thesis lol

omg Kanye i can't believe you read yaoi !!!
Joking aside, I totally agree with you. Fujoshis are being really weirdly obsessed with this uke/seme thing and frankly I often find it worrying and sad to see that they are projecting themselves as the weaker one because they're being entered.

I agree. Naono Bohra is my favorite and the reason I can enjoy many other types of mangas that are the typical stereotype. Open minds people! ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

I agree. Naono Bohra is my favorite and the reason I can enjoy many other types of mangas that are the typical stereotype. Open minds people! ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶ Lol!

Nothing else to say except I agree with you 100%.

I only started reading BL manga recently and it's like a whole new world for me. kind of distressing tbh.

*are not. And sorry I didn't mean to do that twice.

It IS a weird phenomenon; it's similar to the overdone formulaic shoujo-Mary-Sue-surrounded-by-all-male-hot-harem--it's this weird fantasy that does not reflect current culture--it's almost an eggaration of a trope concept where there are certain odd rules (like in all genres) that we don't question, but also draws us to yaoi and BL characters and plots that break those rules. I personally love unexpected or interchangeable roles that push the standard "rules" or "boundaries" in BL or even Josei/shoujo/etc genres. It's both refreshing in that there is a degree of realism along with the fantasy and fiction. <3

Lol *exaggeration

Honestly, I think the age of the reader has a lot to do with it. There are some scary young girls reading yaoi, some of which have never even had sex.

As a bisexual female, I agree with you on many things. Many people looked at my partner and I as if I were the one being pushed down (I'm super tiny and rather feminine-looking whereas my partner was the stereotypical "dyke"), which was not the case at all. *buffs nails on shirt* Joking aside, she deliberately made herself that way because she was having identity issues. Eventually she relaxed and even embraced her femininity. I didn't really care either way. Another thing I agree on is yeah, anal hurts, and I don't have the added bene of a prostate. Total bummer.

As for why I read yaoi, well, it's less annoying than shoujo and josei because the women are generally weak and annoying characters, and I like smut. Also, men treat each other differently than with a woman. Things are just a little more raw verbally and physically. This is much better represented in m/m erotica novels. I write erotica (typically paranormal romance cause I like my smut freaky), and for a couple of years, I wrote on a writer's board with a gay man in the BDSM scene. We wrote some pretty awesome m/m pieces and our characters were almost always switches. Domination was a major theme across the pieces because that was the medium we wrote in, but newsflash ladies!! Someone can top from the bottom. It's a real thing. Case in point: Saezuru Tori wa Habatakanai. Yashiro is my absolute favorite slutty uke, and he tops from the bottom except with Doumeki. Doumeki just throws him off his game and it's a beautiful thing to see. Both men are obviously men, I mean, c'mon, they're proper yakuza. Nothing fluffy happening there. There are a few other yaoi I've run across where this is the case, and I absolutely love them. I also really enjoy the switches, like the ones in Mukizu ja Irarenee (excellent managaka btw). I do have to sit on my hands when reading people's comments on those though.

And for this comic, dunno why people didn't see it coming. His girl toy was riding on top. Right from the start he was a bottom because he clearly likes handing over the reins. His personality just added to it.

Anyways, it has everything to do with personality, wants, needs, likes, and dislikes, than appearance in reality. Sorry so long; I just felt the need to add to the rant. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

no it's cool, i like hearing what other people, especially queer people, have to say about BL and yaoi.

i don't know, i'm reading some josei and shoujo that i really like, although women are obviously represented poorly in a lot of shoujo/josei. and i'm not sure yaoi does much better in terms of avoiding weak and annoying "feminine" characters in BL relationships (the ukes, more or less). plus, i think women are generally treated like shit in yaoi, which makes me uncomfortable. but maybe i've just read the wrong things, who knows. i will have to check out mukizu. more switches are always nice :)
i do take issue with your second-to-last paragraph because that's the kind of stereotyping i was railing against - that bottoming ~= giving up control - but i agree that the author probably had that kind of thing in mind, at least.
and i love yoneda kou. yashiro is one of the best crafted characters i've read in a long time. i like that a lot of her bottom characters are smart, tough and cunning. i'd like to see that more.

Hmm. I don't think it's stereotyping at all. Comics still tend to follow much of what you'll find in literature. In this case, it was foreshadowing. Stereotyping would be me saying that the kouhai should be the bottom because he's shorter and less of a jerk. Perhaps it's the way I worded it, but he prefers others doing the work. Maybe I should have just called him lazy instead lol

fair enough!

Considering we do live in a heteronormative society and Yaoi is typically made by females, I'm genuinely not surprised by the whole gender roles stereotypes that some of the readers seem to expect. Im not saying it's a good thing- it's just how society is. Personally I'm a Yaoi fangirl( and a lesbian) and to be honest my favourite thing ever is when the cute tiny guy ends up being the top. I definitely agree on how certain female readers project themselves as being the uke to play out their fantasies. Eh personally I just don't bother reading much of the comments anymore - the less I know, the better ahaha.

Me too. I also like it when the seme is the cute little guy, or when they reverse the roles. I have actually dropped reading some mangas after a couple of pages, when the characters are too stereotypical, and the mangaka is portraying a gay relationship as a stereotypical hetero relationship..

Everything that's been said already is so spot on.

Nine times out of ten when starting a new manga, I already know who's going to bottom/top. Generally it doesn't bother me, but it does get wearily predictable that so many authors seem so beholden to certain gender norms. Are you shorter/feminine/meeker? Well, you're probably screwed. Literally. Which wouldn't be so much of a problem if readers weren't then so baffled or put off when a couple's dynamic didn't play into their expectations. It doesn't really help either that a lot of Japanese publishers intentionally stray away from works that don't feature a stereotypically-identifiable pairing, precisely so that they don't alienate their readers. (I recall reading several omakes to the effect of, 'I wanted X to top, but my editor said no.' Which is unfortunate -- and really only seems to fuel the "panic" that you'll occasionally see in comment sections like these.)

I do think it has a lot to do with age, which Silencia mentioned, as well as a very particular target demographic that BL publishers generally cater to. (And on that note, I'm off to read Mukizu ja Irarenee because role reversal. (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧)

I also prefer the switches. Maybe cause I'm in my 40's but to me it's more sexy and it shows loving each other equally. Just my opinion. By the way, I LOVE Yashiro. That is one man who knows what he likes and knows who he is. Totally ballsy guy.

It's rare that I actually drop it but same- especially when the uke not only looks and acts like a girl it but also treated like one( and by that I mean like seem goes to work- doesn't allow the uke to go outside/work/do anything without him) - which is not only imposing hetero stereotypes but it's also an outdated view on them. I'll accept them once in a while but I can't read any after each other because I get so irritated it makes me want to pluck my eyes out

Sadly, we do see ourselves and other women that way. I'd like to consider myself pretty much above all that, but I'd be lying if I said I truly was. I like being treated like the damsel in distress, occasionally - even if I'd never need to be for real (I'm stubbornly self sufficient and independent). And women are far more competitive than men. We take competition to a personal level. Where men can still be friends with a guy after competing, women can't. We inflict too much damage on other women when we get competitive. By nature our competitions are more intense. Males of a species can mate with several females and produce offspring with all of them. Females get one male at a time they can produce offspring with. This makes us more cutthroat. Even with our intellect, as humans, this nature can be seen quite clearly in everything from how we dress to how we speak. We want to be chosen, to be wanted, desired and we will do whatever it takes to achieve that. A strong woman will act weak to appeal to a man's pride, she will dress in clothes that appeal to a man - even if it is uncomfortable, she will disgrace another woman simply to show that she is a better choice. For the right man, even the most staunch feminist would commit such acts. If they deny it, they are lying to themselves as well as to you. I'm not proud that I would do those things, but I can admit that I'm certainly capable of doing it.
So, if we're honest with ourselves, yaoi and manga in general, are not that far off the mark.

The notion that all women are inherently manipulative creatures that would cut each other down over the nearest dick is hilarious. Maybe YOU are, but don't say "we" as if all women are that vapidly shallow.

I am that vapid and shallow. And if you are honest with yourself, for the right person, so are you. You're trying to tell me that if some skank tried to walk in and take your lover from you, that you'd roll over and let her? I'm not proud of my petty, jealous and selfish nature, but at least I don't lie to myself, or others, that it exists. Unlike you. At the very least, the women around me know well that I'll throw down for the right guy. Conversely, your female friends assume you're "above all that" until your hand is wrapped in their hair and you've already gone to the ground over it. I may not live up to your standards, but at least I can be honest about myself. Can you say the same?
And believe me, women are capable of cutting each other's throats over shoes, let alone the right man. You can believe what you want about yourself, but don't think for a second that anyone else is as righteous as you'd like to think you are. You'll be the one hurt for your assumption.

You also have to consider that yaoi is written for women who are in a society that insists they are "the weaker" sex and pushes them to "conform" to the role laid out for them in tradition. It's assumed that all female roles - including bottoms - would also conform to those traditional roles. Yaoi may be dominated by female mangaka, but the old societal views are hard to shake. In order to appeal to their audience, characters have to be relatable. This is done by making the relationships and characters reflect what most of the audience sees everyday in their own lives and relationships... The female character (uke) facing and dealing with the same situations a female reader might face or have faced. In western society, we balk at most of these scenarios because it's no longer part of our culture for women to be the "good Stepford wife" - let alone a gay man. This is not the case in Japan. Modern ideas go head to head with traditional views and values constantly and in every aspect of life there. Sometimes they can function side by side. Other times there is a bitter clash. As readers of a medium that is based in and on a culture very different from our own, we must keep in mind, and respect, those differences. As unsavory, belittling or confusing as they may be. With luck and hard work on the part of the young generation, they may come to see things as we do and free themselves of the bonds of outdated views and values. Hopefully.

I just wrote a really long reply and accidentally deleted all of it! ╥﹏╥ I am such a klutz!

Any way the gist of was that there is nothing wrong with wanting to take a break from being independent or less dependent and trying something new i.e being the "damsel in distress" or the "prince".

Additionally being attractive is also something you do for your own self esteem and status within their own group, not necessarily for someone else.

Another point was that men also make great efforts to be more attractive e.g buffing up.

That was roughly it...

My god, I feel so dumb for deleting everything ╥﹏╥

Btw it seems like you know some super bitchy people :)

I am truly sorry.

I just realised that I had accidentally called you bitchy in my previous comment. Which is admittedly a rather ridiculous blunder to make. Rest assured that it was not my intention in any way. I had originally thought that you were describing other girls' behaviours and not your own. Again, apologies.


By the way, I personally believe Hal has a point: You are making sweeping statements about half the worlds population (plus the image you paint of competition between women is somewhat facetious, in a rather twisted way). That of course does not mean it is not your own personal reality. It just does not have to be everyone's.

Just my thoughts on the matter!

Have a nice day! ( '◡' )

No worries. I take no offense at your comments. In fact, I like the way you think and express yourself. I do know a lot of bitchy people and I also happen to be capable of being one. You see, it's the "capability" that I'm talking about when I make those "sweeping" generalizations. We are all capable of extremes. When we deny our capacity to do something - positive or negative - we also ignore it or deny it when we actually do it. The "I would never do that/ I never did that" spiral. However, if you can recognize that you are capable of doing something good, you can achieve great things. If you recognize that you are capable of very bad things, you can avoid hurting others by refraining from those negative actions. Denying them entirely leaves you open to being blissfully unaware that you are hurting others and then denying your actions later with the "I could never do that" excuse. I may not be high and mighty or righteous about what I - and everyone else - am capable, but I am honest and my honesty keeps me and others safer from harm than denial. That is the point I'm trying to make. Am I a horrible bitch under normal circumstances? I don't think I am. I am kind and generous to others and I am a good friend to those who I am close. I don't pass judgement on others and I believe that everyone deserves friendship and compassion from others. However, in extreme situations I am capable of acting without kindness or mercy. So is every other human on this planet.