thaongan2509's Topics (13)

I just saw that and I came here looking for people to talk about it with.

Spoiler

Scroll down

As an Asuza fan, I love it. And Karino stick up for him (at least to his mom).

I'm a great Azusa fan too, can't wait to see the whole raws... I believe this scene may be a sign for happy ending for Azusa and Karino, I can't even think about bad ending for them... btw, sorry for my not so perfect English.

Your English is fine. :) I think it looks promising too.

But my English is bad--I meant "sticks" not "stick". I have no excuse--I just type badly.

Don't worry, I even didn't notice mistake in your English^^ Anyways, while waiting for raws, I was just listening CH drama CD - I believe I'll listen it often till I won't get any raws... so hungry for CH new chapter, huhuhu^^

Oh my god thank you.

I squealed when I saw it! That school is really sick. Karino, take Azusa far far away from that school and that LIFE! Gosh. I don't care if Karino keeps torturing Azusa, there's some appreciation there from Karino that Azusa probably doesn't get from anyone else. I'm just rambling btw, I don't know what I'm saying.

It's just that the school sucks... probably putting the blame on Azusa to clear Tatsumi and Karino's involvement in the whole affair.

Thank you!!

another picture: https://twitter.com/ogawaccc?lang=vi

We already Saw that onde BOI

We already Saw that one BOI

Who is the new guy the black hair ?

Thanks again!

Yeah, even Little Yakuza is protected by that school. Only Azusa has no influential father to consider.

The fact that they tolerate and keep a blind eye to the caste system/game is a clear proof how an ass that school is. The school is made to cater to the children of influential people to play around, exercise power and manipulate others however they want. Practice playground before they go to the outside world. The school and the system is the real villain here.

I agree.

But I also hold Karino's dad in contempt. It's not just because he looks like Davros from Doctor Who either. Still, he's one man and the whole system is screwed. Makes a good story though.

Well, exactly. That's why I love the story :)

my fujoshi friends !!! love u so much



(well maybe we won't never meet but i consider u as my friends)

can't wait for the hole chap

Heck yes I love you

THANKS BRO :333

Let's die together then T_T

I HOPE SOMEONE WILL TRANSLATE THIS PART!!!!

True! I would love to know what Karino and Azusa was talking about T_T It probably Azusa challenge Karino into a race but Karino use a trick to Azusa

Poor Azusa. He keeps getting tied up. I'd love to see Karino tied up for once.

Well, sometimes I want to smack Karino across his face too XD That would be satisfying for a moment

OMG AZUZA IN BONDAGE! HOLY FUCK! ITS GLORIOUS!

Oh, now I'm dying to hear Karino's voice (✯◡✯)

Me too

here is Karino's voice. Actually, this is a song but... the singer is the actor playing Karino!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE-iqUJarQI

Thank you so much! I loved it - deep and a little raspy, it fits Karino perfectly..Do you know when the CD will be available? The vid is also cute btw :)

THERES GOING TO BE A DRAMs CD?!??! Holy shit where did u hears this?!?!

And here is Azusa's voice actor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdErpEtK1mw
Well there are 2 voice actors and i don't now exactly which one is Yuuma Uchida, but both are good for Azusa :DD

Ha-ha! I can totally imagine Azusa speaking with this kind of voice..Honestly I have never hoped there will be a CD, I mean the sex scenes are not joking :D

Lol it's funny how Karinos voice actor has a lower voice whilst azusas voice actor has a slightly higher pitch. It's like with a man and a woman. XDD I've noticed that they tend to make the uke's voice higher pitched in most yaoi.

That's good to know. :) I hope Azusa's voice is good too.

me too (๑•ㅂ•)و✧

Aaa~~~ if you want to hear Azusa's voice clearly then watch the first episod of the anime "ReLIFE" at the minute 12:20 (Ooga;s presentation) xDD

er.. which character? because ReLIFE is an anime...

information about Caste Heaven Drama CD:
https://www.tumblr.com/search/caste+heaven+drama+cd

and this is Atsumu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMP758dv-KY
start from 0:34

Ooga Kazuomi ( at 12:20).

Thank you, can't wait (((o(*ﾟ▽ﾟ*)o)))

Karino sent the texts to Azusa. Now that Karino is back, he expects Azusa to continue as they were. Azusa is ignoring him so Azusa can lure Karino to the place where the camera is set up.

oh! i get it. thanks ^^

And that happened right after Karino shooed Azusa away (when Azusa came to visit him at home), so no wonder Azusa was hurt and angry.

Thank you! You rock.

"I will never be a dog running away with my tail between my legs. I will bite him and force him down to his knees."

That's my boy!

Thanks! So instead of changing the double-rape scene she just goes and explains why it happened? Dunno if her Japanese fans will be satisfied with that though :D

Karino seems jealous there...

Yes, he wanted to know if it was friendly kind of sympathy or more than that, look how carefully he's reading Azusa's face expression, he wants to know if he is feeling him. Well, since Azusa didn't - Karino is satisfied (he even pointed out that Azusa couldn't cum with Atsumu), so Azusa lives :D

I think she's showing that Azusa doesn't want to be "saved". Atsumu is more sincere than the creepy teacher, but Azusa isn't really interested in what either wants to offer.

I agree. The look in Karino's eye after Azusa tries to convince him to let Atsumu go is jealous. But his pause after Azusa calls Atusmu "nothing" seems more like Karino is just using the situation as one more payback for Azusa's arrogance. This is just like sticking gum on Azusa's nipple (only worse). That rationale for it still doesn't hold water to me. I don't mean that I think it was wrong to include in a manga, just that I think the characters are full of BS at this time. Except for Azusa, of course. :)

That too, but in my opinion the main point was to show why the rape scene happened, since most of the fans didn't understand why Karino would punish him that way, he could've punished him in a different way.

Oh, I still think Karino could have punished Azusa in a different way--if Karino had feelings instead of just wanting to toy with Azusa and get revenge. This scene still goes in the "Karino is acting like an ass" column for me.

Isn't he just adorable? he-he..He just wanted to make sure that Azusa is telling the truth :D

Well, I can say Karino's behavior makes more sense than Kuze's actions . I mean, I have theories as to why Kuze does that (jealousy, control, because he was told to and because he got off on it), but they have nothing to do with what the characters say is happening.

while reading CT and editing this part i didn't think as much as you.
but now you made me think so much about this chap, about Caste Heaven @@@

Kuze did it because Karino told him to, Kuze is easy to manipulate, he's not a fighter. Remember the part in extra when Karino says: "whoever is in my way I'll make sure that he is completely crushed"? Kuze backed off right away saying "I don't like problems". And he was pissed that Atsumu lied to him. And he never liked Azusa, so he enjoyed to see him being humiliated.

And one more IMPORTANT detail about Karino. Mostly people think that if seme is jealous he should chain his uke up and let no one touch him. But that's not enough for Karino. He wants to make sure that Azusa feels ONLY HIM, that no matter how tired he is of his roughness and how much he's craving for kindness, he is still not capable to feel Atsumu, who has always been kind to Azusa (even though Azusa was cruel to him). Karino is an extraordinary person, his jealousy is an extraordinary one too.

thank you so much!! <3

yes,he doesn't want to lose control over azusa,even the slightest. It's more psychological rather than physical.

Thanks for doing that. What you did is more important than our discussions. We've been debating the meaning of chapter 8 since we first saw it.

I think Kuze started out doing it because Karino told him to--but Karino didn' tell him to rape Atsumu while Atsumu was forced to enter Azua. That was all Kuze--he didn't care how upset and hurt Atsumu was--instead of feeling guilty about hurting Atsumu, Kuze joined in because he got off on it. That's why Atsumu should see what an abusive shit Kuze really is.

I think you may be placing too much emphasis on orgasm. I did notice Azusa didn't cum when Atsumu was in him, and that can be significant in his story because hose things can be symbolic in fiction, but it doesn't mean Azusa only "feels" Karino. Feelings are different. Tere may have been some jealousy, but I think there was also the desire to isolate (no freinds at all of any kind for Azusa) and humiliate.

Karino knew that when Azusa said Atsumu was nothing Azusa had no attraction to Atsumu but Karino completed the plan because it is humiliating to have a "nothing" like Atsumu top Azusa. It does show Karino isn't really that possessive--just a control freak. If Azusa had chosen to fuck everyone instead of giving in early on, Karino would have let them and not thought twice. Karino broke their deal (Azusa allowed Karino so that it would be only Kaino) because Karino doesn't give a fuck about Azusa at that time.

*I think you may be placing too much emphasis on orgasm*

Not me, Karino puts emphasis on the fact that Azusa feels only him . I'm just going with the scenes, since that's the only way to find out what Ogawa is trying to say. And if anything, orgasm is of great importance in yaoi.

*I think there was also the desire to isolate (no freinds at all of any kind for Azusa) and humiliate* - Yes, that too.

*Karino knew that when Azusa said Atsumu was nothing Azusa had no attraction to Atsumu* - He wanted to make sure that Azusa wasn't lying.

*If Azusa had chosen to fuck everyone instead of giving in early on, Karino would have let them and not thought twice*

Don't think so. He would still force him to do what he wants, but making Azusa to choose himself was more cynical way to do that.

*Karino broke their deal (Azusa allowed Karino so that it would be only Kaino) because Karino doesn't give a fuck about Azusa at that time*

Yes and no. Atsumu and Kuze are close to Karino and Azusa, and Karino knew that even though it's humiliating it wouldn't kill Azusa. Whilst if he let his classmates to do what they wanted to, they would tear Azusa apart, and the fact that Karino doesn't let that happen shows that he cares (It's just Azusa wants him to care more, obviously).

Yes, he was pissed at Atsumu, because he lied.

Yea Karino broke the deal and he deserves to be bitten. I said it before but a strong opponent will strike because Karino is in his way and he's not the softy type like Azusa. It's interesting to see how things will evolve with senzaki in the equation.

Atsumu didn't lie. Atsumu simply didn't tell Kuze everything, and Kuze never asked. And being pissed doesn't change the fact that Kuze was straight up abusive at that point because Kuze got off on it.

*Yea Karino broke the deal and he deserves to be bitten.*

Yes and no. "Do you want to get fucked by me or do you want to get fucked by everyone?" Atsumu is not Karino but he's not everyone either. The funny part is that it's still Karino fucking with Azusa :D

*because Karino is in his way and he's not the softy type like Azusa* - I don't understand.

*It's interesting to see how things will evolve with senzaki in the equation*

If Karino and Senzaki will actually confront each other, I'm curious whether Azusa will help Senzaki and get his revenge done (especially since Karino keeps telling him to fight back and Azusa's words "don't regret it when I do" make me think that it's possible) or he will help Karino and by doing that get closer to Karino, since that what he wanted from the beginning.

"Atsumu, who were you with just now?" - "No one, I just had my lunch" - If that's not a lie, I don't know what is..How Kuze felt at that moment was written on his face.

It's fun, isn't it? :D

I had forgotten that. But just because Atsumu did something arguably wrong doesn't make Kuze's abuse any less abusive. Catching your lover in a lie is a good reason to have a fight, be angry, or stop speaking to him. Group rape while your lover sobs isn't really something that can be justfied.

I am open to the idea that Karino has conflicting feelings he doesn't understand, and I may see evidence in the future that supports him having other feelings. But this scene is abusive by both him and even more so by manipulative schmoozy Kuze. Talk about lying--all the BS Kuze feed Atsumu is nothing but a self-serving lie. Kuze has not changed at all.

Karino and Azusa might have complicated feelings that develop in spite of this, but there is no justification that makes this okay. At this time, Karino and Kuze are acting like complete dick heads. After this, I will need something substantial to make me believe Karino has feelings for Azusa instead of just using Azusa.

I am not saying you can't hurt the one you love--because, well, obviously I know better. But involving other people makes it less personal and more abusive. The justifications are just rationalizations. At this time. Karino is getting off on the power, not the person.

Let me add that I can like a character and still not like some things that character does. You know I love Azusa, but many things he does are wrong, particularly in chapter 1. I understand why he does these things, but that doesn't mean he isn't being an ass when he does them.

So, I don't hate Karino, but some of the things he does are wrong. I may understand why he does them (sort of, we don't really get his POV) but he is still being an ass when he does these things.

Just like I like Senzaki, but if/when Senzaki puts the hurt on Karino, whatever the justification, it will probably be a dick move.

About it being abusive - I agree, I've never said it wasn't, we were talking about reasons behind it. I disagree that the only thing Karino enjoys is power, he has power as is, over everyone in his class, he's a king, but the only one he likes to kiss and the only one he protects from others is Azusa. If he'll be willing to protect him from himself - we'll see.

I adore Karino, but the double-rape scene or when he shooed Azusa away in a very rude manner (when Azusa came to visit him) - I didn't like all that much, so I understand what you mean by liking a character, but not all of his actions.

Karino enjoys having power over Azusa specifi8ically and he enjoys playing with Asuza. Up to this point,that's all I am really sure of.

Are you familiar with Ai no Kusabi?

https://www.emanga.com/detail?itemid=297

In that story iason Mink of the elite ruling class forces Rikki, who used to run a gang in the slums, to be his pet (sex slave). I knew Iason loved Riki because Iason would not take Riki to sex parties for others to use. There were other things later on, but Iason's exclusiveness and protectiveness were the first clues. There was one scene where Iason had one of the furniture (servants) give Riki and blow job as part of training, but I think Iason really did think of the furniture as a tool to be used instead of as a person, and it only happened once (if I remember correctly). Maybe the same is true of how Karion looks at Atsumu--but Kuze was there and Kuze is a member of Karinos social class, so it still kind of breaks the idea that Karion is keeping Azusa all for himself.

Ai no Kusabi is the reason I started reading yaoi :D
As for Karino - of course he has ways to go to the "I'll give it all for you" stage of love. He's not an easy one, now is he? heh. All I'm saying is that power is not what he's after when it comes to Azusa, he has enough of it and he will have (if he follows his father's steps).
P.S. Now that you mentioned it, if he let Kuze do that - well, THAT would kill Azusa completely, I think.

Karino is the only one who can fuck Azusa by letting Atsumu doing him it means anybody can fuck Azusa if Karino agree with this.

For Senzaki I think he will use Karino's weakness to confront him and his true feelings.
Did you notice both Karino and Tatsumi will reset their respective lover after graduation but I think they will not be able to do it.

*by letting Atsumu doing him it means anybody can fuck Azusa if Karino agree with this*

No, it doesn't. Atsumu and Azusa got kinda close to each other, in a friendly sort of way, but still. Atsumu is the only one who sympathises with Azusa, while others hate him. If in his place was any other of his classmates - that would break Azusa for good. And it's obvious that Karino didn't sign any contract, he could force Azusa without making him choose, it's just was more fun for him that way. So yeah, he can do whatever he wants, but that's just makes it more precious that he protects Azusa.
And it's not so easy for him to do that, if you remember his classmates hate Azusa so much that they were angry at Karino for not letting them punish him. His classmates have right by the rules of the game to torture the joker and if it wasn't for the respect and the fear they felt towards Karino and his ability to manipulate the crowd, Azusa would have to deal with real shit.

*For Senzaki I think he will use Karino's weakness to confront him and his true feelings* - Possible. But what do you mean by "Karino's weakness"?

*Did you notice both Karino and Tatsumi will reset their respective lover after graduation but I think they will not be able to do it*

Yes, I said that in the topic right above this one :D

i don't think that the class hates Azusa that much,though he had made some enemies. I think the class is mad because they are all used to being able to vent their frustrations by taking it out on a target and Karino isn't letting them do that. They are only somewhat pacified that Karino is punishing Azusa because it'snot really about punishment--it's about everyone, no matter how low on the pyramid, having at least one person they can look down on--and that is Asuza, not because they all personally hate him, but because he is the target. Before that, it was Atsumu, and they all got to treat Atsumu like crap so they were happy.

Senzaki can't hurt Karino because he's Tatsumi's little brother and the King. I think he will use Azusa to deal with Karino like don't get in my way or I will crush your precious lover/toy. Karino unable to protect Azusa from him will be a huge blow for his pride.

Seeing your replies, all of a sudden, i think "What would happen if the teacher named Gondou and Senzaki cooperate together?"
oh yeah, this won't happen in manga, it's just my random question...

Interesting theory. But Senzaki is one higher, he's not in the same class with Karino and he's a delinquent, he breaks the rules (same way criminals do in rl) and he is crazily in love, and he's plain crazy, heh..so anything is possible.

Can you show me one person apart from Atsumu that sympathises with Azusa? It's obvious that by humiliating a joker others feel better about themselves, like in "I'm not a king, but at least I'm not a joker" way and they would love to torture any joker as a matter of fact. But Azusa was a cruel and arrogant king, so they would enjoy it 10 times more to humiliate him in any ways possible. They even sympathised with Atsumu (kinda) when Azusa broke his face with a ball, but do you see anyone sympathising with Azusa? Remember how that geek was angry with Azusa? Now that fat boy and girl(s) that Azusa humiliated? Maybe there is couple of people in the class that Azusa haven't annoyed yet, but we can only suggest, since the only one Ogawa shows to sympathises with Azusa (for some reason) is Atsumu.

That would be fun, hehe, well, anything is possible in this manga, believe me :D

It would be an interesting angle. If removing Karino made the teacher think he could have Azusa, and removing Karino made Senzaki think he could keep Tatsumi, they could work together. It would make more sense than an adult trying to join the game like a student. Karino would have no reason to distrust the teacher, so if the teacher situation up and Senzaki hit Karino from behind, things could get grim.

Then I wonder what Azusa would do? Certainly not the teacher.

Even though for a teacher to join the game and unite with a delinquent would be going too far, but as I said anything is possible, and maybe the reason for Azusa not to join the "coalition" would be the fact that unlike Senzaki who has no feels for Azusa, that crazy teacher is into him, which won't make Azusa's life any easier. I'm sure Azusa would prefer evil Karino with all his kinks, than that "caring and kind" teacher.

PS But we know that none of our ideas will actually take place, sensei will once again come up with something jaw-dropping and fool us :)

In her book Ogawa says that she tried to make Karino devilish and evil. The main rule of any fiction is that evil either should be punished or it should stop being evil. I wonder which way sensei will choose? Will she even play by that rule, she likes to make her own rules :)

BTW, some people think that "not ordinary" and "not normal" is the same. But it's not. Even though those words are close, but while "not ordinary" is one step to "extraordinary" (which has positive meaning), "not normal" is one step from "abnormal" (which has negative meaning).

You really think Kuze is easy to manipulate? Of all people I would have never thought that you, who read the story with so much attention and passion, would have said that.

I think Kuze is usually passive-aggressive and indirect instead of directly confrontational. He's manipulative and cunning--but he also does what Karino says, in part, because he accepts Karino as having more power (even when Karino was not yet king). So Kuze may think it's funny to send Azusa to Karinos' house with homework (which is a sneaky way of taking a swipe at both Karino and Azusa), but Kuze will not stand up to Karino when it comes to protecting Atsumu from Karino. But the choice to stick his dick into his crying lover was all Kuze, so I guess he at least asserted his power over his lover while his lover was being punished by Karino (or being used as a way to tell Azusa that even a "nothing" like Atsumu can do Azusa now if Karino says so).

Agree completely. That's why I say he's not easy to manipulate. He does what's in his interest to do. But he's the most unpredictable of them all - much more than Karino is, and, to me, even scarier than Karino whose aggressiveness is so straight-forward.

Remember when Kuze wanted the King card and Karino said "I'll crush anyone who gets in my way"? Kuze backed off right away, saying "I don't like problems", so as I said, he's not a fighter. And even though he was angry at Atsumu for lying and getting close to Azusa, and THAT was his reason to go for that rape, Karino was the one who gave the orders. When I say "manipulate' I mean "pull the strings", I didn't mean Kuze was against it, though later on he was angry at Karino as if Karino was the only one respocible for what happend.

I don't remember any other scene when Kuze was violent toward Atsumu and gettig off on that, so the reason he did it was because he was angry at Atsumu and because Karino orchestrated that whole thing. If the only reason for Karino to do this was to show that anyone can do Azusa if Karino says so, he wouldn't put an accent on the fact that Azusa couldn't cum with Atsumu, but as soon as Karino touched him, he "went off".

There are plenty of scenes where Kuze is passive-aggressive. If Kuze was angry at the time, it changes nothing. Karino orchestrated it, Kuze went along, and then Kuze added more without Karino telling him to. Whatever rational Kuze may have to make it all Atsumu's fault is just the kind of justification abusers always use--she/he burnt dinner, she/he talks too much, she/he ignores me, she/he lied, or flirted, or is cold: she/he made me do it--but the fact is Kuze doesn't snap and attack strong, powerful Karino when Kuze is upset--Kuze *chooses* a target for his negative emotions and he chooses *the*target--Atsumu. Kuze gets "angry" and rapes sobbing, weak Atsumu when Karino already is already usuing Atsumu. If this is additional "punishment" from Kuze to Atsumu, it's a form of punishment that puts Kuze's dick up Atsumu's ass in a declaration of ownership and control even as Karino is also controlling Atsumu.

I will agree to disagree about Karino's motives until we have more information.

Can you remind me the scenes where Kuze was violent towards Atsumu or somehow showing he likes it that way? Maybe I did forget something, since this is not my favourite couple and all, but as far as I remember, unlike Karino, Kuze was the gentle one.

*If Kuze was angry at the time, it changes nothing*...and the rest of the text -
I've never said otherwise, so I don't really know why you wrote this.

*I will agree to disagree about Karino's motives until we have more information*.

Whaterver happens later, doesn't change what we see in this scene. You suggest that the only reason for Karino to do what he did was to show Azusa that anyone can do him (as if Azusa didn't know), but you dismiss Karino's words completely.

I think initially Karino wanted to punish them since he caught them at the moment when Atsumu was trying to convince Azusa to run, but when Azusa showed some sympathy and asked Karino to let Atsumu go, Karino decided to show Azusa (and to prove it to himself) that as much as Azusa craves for kindness, HE is the only one who can satisfy him. He literally says: "I will show you how to satisfy this guy"
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c008/33.html

*If the only reason for Karino to do this was to show that anyone can do Azusa if Karino says so, he wouldn't put an accent on the fact that Azusa couldn't cum with Atsumu, but as soon as Karino touched him, he "went off"*

I still remember what I thought the first time I saw this scene: "Karino, if I were you I wouldn't be so proud of someone else's dick making my boyfriend that hard" because real pleasure is not only coming, but enduring the game. And maybe Azusa is touched by Atsumu kindness, I mean, he doesn't dislike his little cock for sure, even if we all clearly know that he likes the bastard.

Azusa' s bad taste put aside, let's talk about the psycho, I mean, Kuze. Why does he do what he does. Because he's much more sadistic than Karino. Again, he's subtle and sly, he pretends to be a good guy (even though, he's a genuine bastard too, Atsumu must be completely mind- absent to not realize something so obvious) but he does not "obey" to Karino. I agree he's not a fighter, but not because he's afraid of others… which he's probably not. He's not a fighter because he likes the shadow zone, whereas Karino wants to underline his own power. In the end, who rules the game? Kuze is CH Iago's, only, he lacks any allure. His deeper satisfaction comes from making others seem guilty for his bad actions - in this case, Karino, but he just did what he wanted from the beginning: he annihilated Atsumu.
Atsumu is beyond reproach. Do not tell me he was raped, he had a bunch of fun even if he was uneasy with the situation, and to prove that, he bought that bunch of incredible lies Kuze fed him after. Much easier than admitting "how I liked Azusa's hole, what a shame he belongs to someone else. Should I say it out clear that I want to do it with two guys at once?…"

These guys are really sad. They want an old-style gay orgy, but they have to put on an entire show to make it looks like everyone is someone else's victim. If it goes on like this, Karino will be the heartbroken one in the end (but no one will pity him since sane people want to see him dead, possibly atrociously dead).

Just reading the comments I'm loosing my faith in Senzaki. He's an honest psycho, not a looser like the rest of them. He will give them a closer look and he will decide it's too much of an effort to take his gloves off for them.

Kuze is passive-aggressive, manipulative and abusive, but not necessarily sadistic. It's not violence he needs, but power and control enough to allow him to be abusive every so often (in between the times he sweet talks Atsumu and reels him back in). Here are a few examples:

In chapter one, I think Kuze does more bullying on Azusa's behalf than Azusa himself does:

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/1/f27e427c1d863ae566c7ef5083c53c24.png

Azusa is kind of frowning in the background, but look at Kuze's grin in the next panel.

Starting with Chapter four, Kuze is initially attracted to Atsumu's weakness (rather than his personality or his heart) and manipulates Atsumu, and puts Atsumu in a much higher social rank that Atsuma actually wanted. This is not something Atsumu wants or is happy with--Atsumu wanted to keep his safe prep card--but Kuze forced Atsumu into the spotlight because Kuze enjoyed it, no matter how uncomfortable Atsumu felt. Kuze claims he is a person who likes to take care of "others" but that's BS (see chapter one)--he is only interested in Atsumu, not others , and his "care" comes at a cost.

There is an initial "honeymoon" stage after the seduction, but it comes with red flags. Kuze purposefully creates a situation where he knew Atsumu would likely protect him. Kuze can see how much it upsets Atsumu,, but Kuze smiles as Atsumu cries because Kuze has proven how much control he has over Atsumu, and how much he can get Atsumu to do for him:

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/6/5570889a9e6ff75e414955e3fd4cac15.png

Kuze sees Atsumu getting stronger, and takes steps to stop Atsumu from having other friends or outside support systems:

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/7/60926dae78fb7ad8b6e58d849439e7e3.jpeg

Kuze purposefully isolates Atsumu and tells Atsumu Kuze will think for him.

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/7/8a30b8bb816997c7cbacf43465a01fc4.jpeg

At this point, tensions starts to build. Kuze encourages Atsumu to continue thinking of himself as weak and needing, Kuze, while also playing on Atsumu's fears. Kuze is not supporting Atsumu and encouraging Atsumu to make friends, gain confidence, and follow his conscience. Quiet the opposite--Kuze wants him isolated, afraid, and dependent.

Kuze enjoys seeing Atsumu do things Atsumu thinks of as bad. Look at the incident with the queen. Kuze is smooth enough to have told her right away that he thought Karino had wanted her--but he waits. He lets Atsumu feel afraid and jealous--because Kuze enjoys it. Kuze stops Atsumu from going too far, but look how happy Kuze is that he was able to manipulate things to get Atsumu to be so upset:

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/7/9644d42b2400f308a0fa5d694a102722.jpeg

Kuze is totally getting off on the fact that Atsumu is crying and emotionally messed up here--and Kuze let that happen because Kuze wanted to see it.

At tensions increase, communication breaks down and Atsumu becomes fearful of Kuze.

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/9/66f66bb3dd31339d912c6596ee04fc37.jpeg

Kuze actively chases potential friends away from Atsumu again and again:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/9/7dd3ef678111c5e0853d67081184d4e0.jpeg

Did you catch the look Kuze gives Atsumu when Atsumu says he wants to get to know his classmates? That's some "better walk on egg shells to please me" crap. Kuze starts teasing Atsmu to shame him and call him names:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/9/7b792808ddc7cabbd42f02de0a26aa63.jpeg

When Atsumu lies about lunch with Azusa, it's because Kuze is scaring the shit out of him.

When Atsumu says he isn't scared of Karino, Kuze is displeased because Kuze wants Atsumu to be scared of Karino (and everyone). So, Kuze shows Atsumu that Karino isn't nice. Kuze knows this will upset Atsumu, but Kuze wants Atsumu to be upset and emotionally unbalanced. Kuze gets off on making Atsumu feel like that.

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/9/44d108a0e0e5bd6e651439b5365e7771.jpeg

Then when Atsumu wants to help Azusa, Kuze first follows karino's orders even when he can see how much it upsets Atsumu, and then adds an additional un-ordered rape. Karino never tells Kuze to put is dick in Atsumu--that all Kuze. Kuze is totally getting off on it at that time too (you put great weight on things like hard-ons and orgasm--if Kuze was just following orders, why did he get hard?)

This is known as a "incident of abuse" in the domestic abuse cycle. It's a "blow up". It's followed by a show of remorse and reeling the victim back in so that the next time it happens (and the next, and the next) the survivor feels like he's fallen deeper and deeper in the trap.

When Atsumu is understandably upset, Kuze makes it all about himself, throwing a tantrum, focusing the attention on Kuze's emotions until he gets Atsumu to put his legitimate feelings aside to tend to Kuze:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/5dadad04d709da8f3c81ace39e119f27.jpeg

But Atsumu is surprisingly strong in his reconciliation, and Kuze doesn't quite like it. Kuze has to be told to hug Atsmu back after all that:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/7ff759281c5b9c628efde4ad2b6f7b65.jpeg

Kuze is quick to hug crying weak Atsumu--but he slow to embrace strong Atsumu. Kuze wants Astumu to weep and cling to him and him alone. Kuze doesn't want Atsumu to get strong and act as an equal.

And once Kuze feels he has Atsumu again, it's clear Kuze has not changed at all:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/21e27a7f4344a33eceea17f57db7e07d.jpeg

Once again, we see Astumu traumatized and Kuze smiling. This is how Kuze ikes it. Of course, after that Kuze feeds more BS about the caste system to Atsumu so that Astsumu gives in and makes peace with it. Atsumu does it because buying into the rational is easier than sticking with his convictions. It's just as well, since Azusa doesn't want Atsumu's help--but if we are looking at Atsumu's convictions alone here, Atsumu fails.

TL;DR: Kuze shows all the red flags of an abusive relationship and goes through the cycle of abuse including (1) calm or honeymoon phase, (2) tension building, (3) abusive incident, and (4) reconciliation and a return to the first phase of "calm". It looks to me as if the cycle will only continue repeating itself because Kuze hasn't shown any desire to change.

LOL, if we are going to say that in this universe, hard on = consent, then I suppose it was just an orgy. That isn't really how I read it, but I can't fault your logic if I accept that premise. Still, I think the reader was supposed to question it, you know? Like we are supposed to see it's fucked up and not fun. While I don't dismiss yaoi hard-ons and orgasms the way I would in real life, I don't think they are everything in this story either. I think all these boys have raging hormones and feelings they don't understand, and the act out in ways that reflect all that desire, insecurity, need and confusion.

Also, I think Kuze is a huge prick (and not in a good way).

*Karino, if I were you I wouldn't be so proud of someone else's dick making my boyfriend that hard" because real pleasure is not only coming, but enduring the game.*

Karino was the one who made it hard, Karino prepared him.
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c008/30.html

If Azusa didn't dislike his dick his reaction wouldn't be "Don't joke around like that, I'll kill you!" and he would have found some pleasure in it, but he hasn't.

*he does not "obey" to Karino. I agree he's not a fighter, but not because he's afraid of others… which he's probably not. *

I don't know how much he's afraid of Karino, but he did clearly stated that he wanted the king card and as soon as Karino threatened him he backed off.

*In the end, who rules the game?*
Karino does. If Kuze would disagree Karino could order any other classmate to the job. But it doesn't mean that Kuze had anything against it, though later on he did regret what happened and that's why he was angry with Karino.

*His deeper satisfaction comes from making others seem guilty for his bad actions *
Atsumu blamed Kuze for what happened, so Kuze couldn't fool even him.

*Do not tell me he was raped, he had a bunch of fun even if he was uneasy with the situation*

Well, he did cry his heart out, so much so, that Azusa (as horrible as felt), had to be the strong one and support him.

*Much easier than admitting "how I liked Azusa's hole, what a shame he belongs to someone else.*
Atsumu does have a thing for Azusa, but Azusa is not interested, not to mention that he belongs to Karino.

*These guys are really sad.*

Oh, no, they are total fun!
*but no one will pity him since sane people want to see him dead, possibly atrociously dead*

Sane people wouldn't be searching for angels in sensei's stories, especially in the dark ones. Angels are needed in rl, but in fiction they are plain boring.

*Just reading the comments I'm loosing my faith in Senzaki. He's an honest psycho, not a looser like the rest of them.*

I don't know about losers, but the difference between him and Karino is that the first one wouldn't think twice before killing someone, while the other one is actually able to THINK.. and he's good at it.

*He will give them a closer look and he will decide it's too much of an effort to take his gloves off for them.*

Forget about gloves, I'm just hoping he's going to at least take off his glasses some day ;)

I'll read your reply tomorrow, I can't keep my eyes open..

*Kuze is passive-aggressive, manipulative and abusive, but not necessarily sadistic. It's not violence he needs, but power and control enough to allow him to be abusive*
What happened in ch8 was pure violence, which Kuze has never shown before. As for him being passive-aggressive or rather passive-possessive or even active-possessive - no doubt about that. Even Atsumu realized it at some point. He forgives him because he loves him and because he’s a kind person, he even forgave Azusa (not that Azusa cares, heh).
*In chapter one, I think Kuze does more bullying on Azusa's behalf than Azusa himself does: Azusa is kind of frowning in the background, but look at Kuze's grin in the next panel.*
Azusa is pretty pleased. It was Karino who kicked that guy off the chair. But Kuze doesn’t mind, obviously. Kuze was kissing Azusa’s ass even though he actually disliked him.
*Starting with Chapter four, Kuze is initially attracted to Atsumu's weakness (rather than his personality or his heart)*
Isn’t weakness part of his personality? And their story starts from ch5, I know that, because first 4 chapters are about my favorite couple (god, I miss those two ;(((
*and puts Atsumu in a much higher social rank that Atsuma actually wanted.*
Atsumu wanted to get rid of Joker card, he would be happy to have any card but joker, though later on (after incident with the queen) he even started to think about King-card; he is pretty ambitious, our little rabbit, lol:)))
*Kuze claims he is a person who likes to take care of "others" but that's BS (see chapter one)--he is only interested in Atsumu, not others *
Kuze says that he likes someone who can’t do anything without him. Well, Atsumu probably was the most miserable one of all.
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c011.5/12.html
*Kuze purposefully creates a situation where he knew Atsumu would likely protect him. Kuze can see how much it upsets Atsumu,, but Kuze smiles as Atsumu cries because Kuze has proven how much control he has over Atsumu, and how much he can get Atsumu to do for him*
Kuze wouldn’t know if Atsumu could overcome his fear (that scaredy-cat that he was), Kuze wouldn’t create that situation on purpose, unless he’s out of his mind. If Atsumu failed to help, Kuze would have to deal with that big boy Yatori and it looks to me Kuze would have his pretty face pretty damaged:
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c006/27.html
And you can see that Kuze was quite surprised to see Atsumu all fired up:
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c006/29.html
*Kuze sees Atsumu getting stronger, and takes steps to stop Atsumu from having other friends or outside support systems. Kuze purposefully isolates Atsumu and tells Atsumu Kuze will think for him.*
Agree on that and all that queen incident, and it’s obvious that Atsumu is afraid of Kuze, he says it himself.
*When Atsumu says he isn't scared of Karino, Kuze is displeased because Kuze wants Atsumu to be scared of Karino (and everyone). So, Kuze shows Atsumu that Karino isn't nice.*
Yes, though I think his greatest pleasure was to show Atsumu that Azusa wasn’t as cool as Atsumu thought he was.
*Kuze knows this will upset Atsumu, but Kuze wants Atsumu to be upset and emotionally unbalanced. Kuze gets off on making Atsumu feel like that.*
I don’t see him getting off here, he’s actually not happy with Atsumu’s reaction.
*Then when Atsumu wants to help Azusa, Kuze first follows karino's orders even when he can see how much it upsets Atsumu, and then adds an additional un-ordered rape. Karino never tells Kuze to put is dick in Atsumu--that all Kuze. Kuze is totally getting off on it at that time too*
Maybe it was sort of cleansing ritual? Kuze got off with Atsumu many times before, why not now?
*you put great weight on things like hard-ons and orgasm*
Not me, the author does. I’m just enjoying all those orgasms, passions, obsessions.. Why would I even read yaoi otherwise?
*if Kuze was just following orders, why did he get hard?*
I’ve never said he was JUST following orders, I have already mentioned he was angry at Atsumu for lying and getting close to Azusa. But Karino was the one who came with the idea and gave the orders.
*When Atsumu is understandably upset, Kuze makes it all about himself, throwing a tantrum, focusing the attention on Kuze's emotions until he gets Atsumu to put his legitimate feelings aside to tend to Kuze*
You forgot what Kuze was thinking to himself, that’s his REAL thoughts: “I should be kind, kind..” Kuze wasn’t putting on a show, that was real him:
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c009/10.html
*But Atsumu is surprisingly strong in his reconciliation, and Kuze doesn't quite like it. Kuze has to be told to hug Atsmu back after all that. Kuze is quick to hug crying weak Atsumu--but he slow to embrace strong Atsumu. Kuze wants Astumu to weep and cling to him and him alone. Kuze doesn't want Atsumu to get strong and act as an equal.
Yes, he says it himself: http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c011.5/12.html
But at that particular moment he was just surprised: ”Atsumu, I never thought you had such a power”.
http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/7ff759281c5b9c628efde4ad2b6f7b65.jpeg
*And once Kuze feels he has Atsumu again, it's clear Kuze has not changed at all:
http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/21e27a7f4344a33eceea17f57db7e07d.jpeg*
That guy who tried to tell the teacher ended up in the hospital, maybe Kuze was protecting Atsumu from that fate.
*TL;DR: Kuze shows all the red flags of an abusive relationship and goes through the cycle of abuse including (1) calm or honeymoon phase, (2) tension building, (3) abusive incident, and (4) reconciliation and a return to the first phase of "calm". It looks to me as if the cycle will only continue repeating itself because Kuze hasn't shown any desire to change.*
Kuze is a traumatized and unbalanced person, though he doesn’t even realize it: ”I thought I took care of you so carefully, did I break you?” : http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c009/5.html
But that double rape wouldn’t have happened if Kuze wasn’t pissed with Atsumu and if Karino didn’t orchestrate it.

Well, you and I have a totally different interpretation of Kuze's thoughts and actions. That happens. I looked at your links and I still see a manipulative passive-aggressive bastard, but I simply don't like the charater enough to go thorugh link by link again and argue.

Can we at least agree Kuze is annoying as f*ck?

No problem with that, especially since every time I saw him and Atsumu on the cover I new I'd have to wait for ages to see my adorable crazies - Kari and Azu.

PS While I went through those pages with Kuze I had a good laugh though - I mean this dude actually believes he's a caring and kind person: "I thought I took care of you so carefully", LOL :DDD

I agree with that part--Kuze really thinks of himself as a good guy. *Eyes to heaven*. And i used to do the same when I saw them on the cover. :)

Girls (assuming you both are girls) you read it so carefully and seriously it discourages me somehow. One one side, it's beautiful there's such an attentive public for the author, but on the other hand it's like you're forgetting completely that the development depends on the public's reaction, so it's impossible to be so affirmative about the characters after a few chapters (and yes, they are "a few" since she continuously changes the focus). I agree on things said before in other discussion - she seems to be a very strong-headed author, not the kind that will immediately react changing the story- but at this point it doesn't matter at all what she said publicly, we all know the original plot must have been different. To be clear, I appreciate a lot to read your passionate and hyper-intellingent comments, but you take it so seriously you don't even see when someone is joking. Do I believe that hardness=happiness, or that rape=good if yo come? GOD NO. But this story is so excessive and, at the same time, the perpetual changing subject seems such a way out of continuing the main story that, until I will actually see something really interesting again, I won't take anything for sure. Karino is supposed to be this incredible bad-ass character and that's exactly why it's highly possible he'll turn out being weaker than he seems, or it would really be too obvious. I'll go on reading your speculations, they truly are amusing (at some point, more than the real story, God knows that before chapter 8 I was dying out of boredom because of Kuze/Atsumu). Have a great week!

That’s what we do, that’s what I do in any case – joking, having fun discussing favorite manga, killing time before the new chap comes out (the amount of my smileys, hehes and hahas makes it obvious..or so I thought). I’m much into yaoi lately and I’m trying hard to read other works of other authors, but in comparison with Ogawa they are so tasteless, boring and dull that at some point I find it more entertaining to talk about Caste Heaven than read that unreadable staff.

First 4 chapters of Caste Heaven is the best I’ve ever read in yaoi so no wonder that in comparison with Karino/Azusa the other two couples are less appealing (though there are those who like them more). And I know how much Karino is hated so I won’t be surprised if something horrible will happen to him or he will turn out to be the noblest and kindest person in the world, heh. Though I do hope that sensei is stubborn enough to end the story the way she planned to. As for the characters – we have what we have and we have enough to see how complicated and multicolored they are, and no matter what happens next - it might only add some colors, but it can’t wipe off what we’ve already seen.

PS Thank you! Have a great week you too!

You should take me with a grain of salt. I 'm not so entirely serious--I just like to talk a lot. There is a show called Orange is The New Black where a character called Brook Soso says she is sometimes afraid to laugh because she has learned through experience that people are sometimes unintentionally funny. I don't mean you ( did put an "LOL" on my comment to you) but in some cases, I am not entirely sure.

╮(￣▽￣)╭

Thanks! It doesn't look all that different to me. Would you mind translating the fixed parts? I'd be grateful.