I mean . . . This is the Internet and people are allowed to like cringe things ╮(. ❛ _ ❛ )╭
Imo, as far as josei straight smut goes, this is one of the less grating and (despite how it's presented) has less misogynistic objectification of women than most So I think it's an entertaining read but I don't think it would make it onto most people's top-ten list lol (and if it does, good on them. They can like what they like)
I mean . . . This is the Internet and people are allowed to like cringe things ╮(. ❛ _ ❛ )╭Imo, as far as josei straight smut goes, this is one of the less grating and (despite how it's presented) has... Turnip
What I love about some of these people who complain the most is that they are still reading when its over 20 chapters
I mean . . . This is the Internet and people are allowed to like cringe things ╮(. ❛ _ ❛ )╭Imo, as far as josei straight smut goes, this is one of the less grating and (despite how it's presented) has... Turnip
This is one of the most objectifying stories I’ve ever read hello?? Her whole personality is that she’s obedient and submissive and she spent her entire life watching porn and didn’t have a single friend. Then she married a man just because he was handsome and wanted someone obedient. Like her entire character is like she was molded to be a sx toy and nothing else matters. That’s awful. Idk what kind of Josei’s you’ve been reading but there’s dozens that better than this
This is one of the most objectifying stories I’ve ever read hello?? Her whole personality is that she’s obedient and submissive and she spent her entire life watching porn and didn’t have a single friend.... Joho
Tbh, I know so many girls that love sex but are the obedient/submissive type and its totally ok for them to want to have a partner that takes care of them and "leads". In fact on average, women are more obedient than the average dude and there isn't anything shameful about being a submissive person.
The problem is not being under someone's care/domination willingly but rather them being forced into it against their own will. There is literally NO forcing anyone against anyone's will in this story.
You on the other hand sound like someone that detests being dominated by someone (which is fine just like it's fine to like it) and because of it you want to remove the adult fun from others. You should follow your own advice and just drop it and move on and let other adults live their unrealistic fantasies and kinks.
Tbh, I know so many girls that love sex but are the obedient/submissive type and its totally ok for them to want to have a partner that takes care of them and "leads". In fact on average, women are more obedien... vvvkkkvvv
Think of it this way, a 20 something year old woman with “daddy issues” dating a 50 year old man. Obviously this isn’t right because the man is a creep and wants her because she’s young and naive. Just because she’s happy with it doesn’t mean it’s right.
The reason fl is the way that she is because she was forced into it. She didn’t have a choice but to take on this personality. Yes there are women irl who are “obedient” but 1 no one is always obeying what someone says every time unless they’ve been manipulated or abused, 2 “obedient” or “submissive” women do not spend their whole lives consuming prn all day everyday isolated in their homes after school and having their only dream or goal in life be an obedient wife and doing whatever your husband wants. 3 the only reason most women would be “submissive” or “obedient” in life is because society made it so, for decades women were taught growing up to be passive, that their word is not valuable, to serve others and tolerate bad behavior from others instead of retaliating. Those girls grow up have kids and teach them the same thing. It is not something inherent. It is conditioning.
FL didn’t choose this life, choosing the only option presented to you and not being allowed to look at any other option is not a real choice. She’s been conditioned and isolated her whole life. And your last paragraph really makes me laugh because I’m literally sub leaning. It’s not the actual dominating or degradation that’s the problem, it’s the fact that the author chose to reduce the fl into nothing but a sex obsessed naive woman and paired her with a man who disrespects her to hurt her on purpose, but then is like no it’s okay because she secretly likes it. It’s tiring seeing fls being treated like crap by writers.
But my point was not even to say that others cannot watch it, although I don’t agree with anyone consuming this type of content there’s no use telling random strangers to stop. My point is that you said it was not objectifying or that it was less objectifying than most straight smuts, and that is simply false, this one is definitely up there when it comes to objectifying the fl.
Think of it this way, a 20 something year old woman with “daddy issues” dating a 50 year old man. Obviously this isn’t right because the man is a creep and wants her because she’s young and naive. Just ... Joho
oh honey, you're projecting real life scenarios on porn. But if you really think about it, yes, the father of the fml did all he can to condition her. BUT the point that the author has been making since the very start was, the conditioning he was trying to do was only helping her because her real personality does like someone else taking care of her, her being submissive etc. That's the point. If we're gonna use real life examples just to point out that yes this is toxic in real life but to SOME effect it does happen, my parents were strict about curfew and not going out because people are not to be trusted which in turn helped ME the fuck out because I am an introvert who doesn't like spaces with too many people since I was young. I knew that from the very beginning. It's kinda like that with the fml. She LIKES being submissive. Yes, irl its a product of the patriarchy but here? She likes it. That's the fucking point. Now, run along and learn to separate fiction from reality and have fun.
Think of it this way, a 20 something year old woman with “daddy issues” dating a 50 year old man. Obviously this isn’t right because the man is a creep and wants her because she’s young and naive. Just ... Joho
I couldn’t have stated it better myself ! It’s very very odd bc she doesn’t even act like an adult
oh honey, you're projecting real life scenarios on porn. But if you really think about it, yes, the father of the fml did all he can to condition her. BUT the point that the author has been making since the ver... mioamato
Think of it this way, a 20 something year old woman with “daddy issues” dating a 50 year old man. Obviously this isn’t right because the man is a creep and wants her because she’s young and naive. Just ... Joho
I feel like this thread has exploded a bit since I last commented on it so I feel kind of dumb jumping back in but uhh In this response you were talking to that vvvkkkvvv guy like they were me
(just the part where you said "My point is that you said it was not objectifying or that it was less objectifying than most straight smuts, and that is simply false")
and I just want to say I don't agree with that individual and I think they are weird lol Also I don't agree with the people who are like "learn to separate fiction from reality" and I think it's much better to talk about how reality impacts fiction and vise versa (& if anyone isn't interested in that conversation, they can just ignore and move on lol) In fact (Joho) I agree with pretty much all your points lol
I probably worded my original comment wrong. In my opinion, this is still less dehumanizing than most straight smut (which I shouldn't have lumped in with Josei manga). That isn't to say it isn't still objectifying and misogynistic. Yes there are better ones than this, but the VAST majority are far worse. (And honestly I stay away from most articles in the genre for that reason)
(Now this part is just my read/experience/opinion and isn't meant to disagree with any of your points, because like I said, I do agree with you (and it also isn't important at all so feel free to stop reading here lol))
The reason I'm enjoying this particular story is that she says she's fine with being obedient and a push over, but in reality when she's told to do something she just verbally agrees and then does whatever she wants (if she doesn't mind doing what she was told she does but she definitely has her own thoughts and opinions that manifest in her actions). I find this somewhat subversive to most of what I've seen in this genre (that I admittedly only occasionally dabble in), because most of what I've seen is a "strong independent woman" (or even just a normal jane-doe type woman going about her life) who's only like that because she "hasn't been fucked right". In those cases, it's like her character development is in reverse and she turns into a submissive woman after a man tramples over her "no"s over and over again (or she at least falls in love with him and I hate it. It's. Grating). In this story I see the potential for the opposite. She started out as a supposedly "submissive and obedient" character and so if there is any character development (which tbf, I'm not actually counting on but the possibility has me still reading for now) she'll learn that she actually does have things she cares enough to be disobedient and fight for (she just hasn't encountered them yet) and that she's only been good at being "obedient" up 'til now because it suited her interests. Either that or there's the possibility of her breaking down and discovering how repressed she actually is. (And you can call me an optimist for reading that potential into it, but if I'm disappointed, I'll just drop--it's not that deep for me)
Another kinda subversive and interesting aspect is that she's the one who wants a sexual relationship and doesn't care about the emotional strings attached and her husband is the one who's already head over heels for her and in denial. I find this dynamic very interesting and entertaining.
But yeah, I actually like her character quite a bit atp. She's tolerated her family's bs and control all this time, because at most she found it inconvenient or petty rather than hurtful or harmful. Now that she's out of that situation, she's living her best life. She's free to do pretty much whatever and she's having all the sex she ever wanted
and another opinion of mine is that there aren't enough female characters who blatantly and openly want and enjoy sex (rather than being "shy" about it and saying "no" the entire time and showing no enjoyment in the initiation so it's 100% a sexual assault scene that we're told was "consensual" because she enjoyed it by the end.... It. Grates.), so that's another thing I like about this one
It's not lost on me the inherent misogyny in writing this kind of "submissive and obedient" FL in a porn comic. Even if women like this exist irl and their choices are 100% their own, those choices are not made in a vacuum and are influenced by the wider (very misogynistic) society. I also don't believe telling spreading stories like this is harmless.
But at the end of the day, I find it entertaining enough to read and I'm constantly searching for more media to cram into my empty brain
I feel like this thread has exploded a bit since I last commented on it so I feel kind of dumb jumping back in but uhhIn this response you were talking to that vvvkkkvvv guy like they were me (just the part whe... Turnip
oh honey, you're projecting real life scenarios on porn. But if you really think about it, yes, the father of the fml did all he can to condition her. BUT the point that the author has been making since the ver... mioamato
You don’t seem to understand the point of my comment, which is that the fl is most definitely objectified contrary to what the original commenter said and I was listing reasons as to why. I know people like to think this but reality and fiction are never fully separate. “It’s just fiction” has always been a lame excuse to hide from critique. I won’t answer anything else because I already countered every argument you’ve given in my previous comment it just seems you haven’t understood it.
I feel like this thread has exploded a bit since I last commented on it so I feel kind of dumb jumping back in but uhhIn this response you were talking to that vvvkkkvvv guy like they were me (just the part whe... Turnip
First of all I’m so sorry I thought it was the same person this whole time! I think I did get confused thinking you only meant the josei genre, but it definitely makes more sense now as smut in the shouter seinen category are definitely more likely to dehumanize the fl I completely agree with that. Sorry about that misunderstanding I feel as though I’ve wasted my energy now.
I’m reading your perspective on it and I definitely see what you’re saying, she started off being obedient and a pushover but in the last chapters it’s true that she seems to be realizing that maybe that wasn’t actually her true nature. If it actually goes in the direction you’re thinking I definitely fault myself for judging the author too soon.
While I do understand and I do enjoy watching her do everything she always wanted, it’s also bittersweet personally because of the circumstances that led her to it, at the same time it is the reality of most hyper sexual individuals to have had an unhealthy childhood! I think for me what really doesn’t sit is that when I read this it translated to me that the author made this character to change the ml. In reality ml acts that way not because he’s actually that way, but because he’s afraid of getting hurt again, if it were a woman who wanted a mutual love he could’ve started falling for her but eventually she would’ve done things to trigger him and promote him to push her away as much as possible. Fl instead loved him but didn’t ask for anything in return, she has all the characteristics needed to make him doubt his initial beliefs and keep falling deeper and deeper in love without realizing it. But the fls journey feels flat and lacks that same complexity and character development(so far) especially since she is the main character of this story, I think the author should’ve done more for her. It’s as though she just stays still and takes every hurtful action while she herself is afraid to let it be known that she actually enjoys it as she doesn’t want to seem too dirty, she’s still focused on being his perfect wife who wants what he wants.
I also do enjoy sex positive fl though those are my favorites stories to read and I fully agree with your last paragraph, although I try to avoid these types of manhwas(the concept can be interesting but a lot of the time the story isn’t aware of itself, things just happen without much thought and it feels lazy to me, like if you’re gonna give them tragic backstories then don’t reduce the fl this way) I was drawn to the cute cover and I am the type of person who wants to see the story all the way through. It’s not torturous(like those other straight smuts you mentioned) so I still want to see where it goes.
Forgive me as well for the length of this comments, I too love having discussions like this and sharing thoughts!
I feel like this thread has exploded a bit since I last commented on it so I feel kind of dumb jumping back in but uhhIn this response you were talking to that vvvkkkvvv guy like they were me (just the part whe... Turnip
Also I JUST had this thought and I wanna bring up this point as well! Like I mentioned in my last comment my main problem with the story wasn’t with the story itself, it’s the fact that this author decided to tell the story in a way which the ml is ruthless and the fl endures it all in the name of love and submission. Specifially the way that he wants to cage her when he realizes he’s in love and thinks she’s fallen for another. She simply accepts it all without any doubt, but in a way, he’s doing to her what her father did. So many authors persist on this narrative that fl should brush off, endure and take every whim of the ml no matter how cruel. The mls journey is more complex and truly shows how he changes overtime but the fl gets scraps in her own story. It’s just very male centered. This is also goes into my point about that fact that the story is not aware of itself!
So…no one else think ts cringe… just me?
I mean . . . This is the Internet and people are allowed to like cringe things ╮(. ❛ _ ❛ )╭
Imo, as far as josei straight smut goes, this is one of the less grating and (despite how it's presented) has less misogynistic objectification of women than most
So I think it's an entertaining read but I don't think it would make it onto most people's top-ten list lol (and if it does, good on them. They can like what they like)
Just you
What I love about some of these people who complain the most is that they are still reading when its over 20 chapters
not even but okay
I’m with you, definitely cringe
This is one of the most objectifying stories I’ve ever read hello?? Her whole personality is that she’s obedient and submissive and she spent her entire life watching porn and didn’t have a single friend. Then she married a man just because he was handsome and wanted someone obedient. Like her entire character is like she was molded to be a sx toy and nothing else matters. That’s awful. Idk what kind of Josei’s you’ve been reading but there’s dozens that better than this
Tbh, I know so many girls that love sex but are the obedient/submissive type and its totally ok for them to want to have a partner that takes care of them and "leads". In fact on average, women are more obedient than the average dude and there isn't anything shameful about being a submissive person.
The problem is not being under someone's care/domination willingly but rather them being forced into it against their own will.
There is literally NO forcing anyone against anyone's will in this story.
You on the other hand sound like someone that detests being dominated by someone (which is fine just like it's fine to like it) and because of it you want to remove the adult fun from others. You should follow your own advice and just drop it and move on and let other adults live their unrealistic fantasies and kinks.
Think of it this way, a 20 something year old woman with “daddy issues” dating a 50 year old man. Obviously this isn’t right because the man is a creep and wants her because she’s young and naive. Just because she’s happy with it doesn’t mean it’s right.
The reason fl is the way that she is because she was forced into it. She didn’t have a choice but to take on this personality. Yes there are women irl who are “obedient” but 1 no one is always obeying what someone says every time unless they’ve been manipulated or abused, 2 “obedient” or “submissive” women do not spend their whole lives consuming prn all day everyday isolated in their homes after school and having their only dream or goal in life be an obedient wife and doing whatever your husband wants. 3 the only reason most women would be “submissive” or “obedient” in life is because society made it so, for decades women were taught growing up to be passive, that their word is not valuable, to serve others and tolerate bad behavior from others instead of retaliating. Those girls grow up have kids and teach them the same thing. It is not something inherent. It is conditioning.
FL didn’t choose this life, choosing the only option presented to you and not being allowed to look at any other option is not a real choice. She’s been conditioned and isolated her whole life.
And your last paragraph really makes me laugh because I’m literally sub leaning. It’s not the actual dominating or degradation that’s the problem, it’s the fact that the author chose to reduce the fl into nothing but a sex obsessed naive woman and paired her with a man who disrespects her to hurt her on purpose, but then is like no it’s okay because she secretly likes it. It’s tiring seeing fls being treated like crap by writers.
But my point was not even to say that others cannot watch it, although I don’t agree with anyone consuming this type of content there’s no use telling random strangers to stop. My point is that you said it was not objectifying or that it was less objectifying than most straight smuts, and that is simply false, this one is definitely up there when it comes to objectifying the fl.
oh honey, you're projecting real life scenarios on porn. But if you really think about it, yes, the father of the fml did all he can to condition her. BUT the point that the author has been making since the very start was, the conditioning he was trying to do was only helping her because her real personality does like someone else taking care of her, her being submissive etc. That's the point. If we're gonna use real life examples just to point out that yes this is toxic in real life but to SOME effect it does happen, my parents were strict about curfew and not going out because people are not to be trusted which in turn helped ME the fuck out because I am an introvert who doesn't like spaces with too many people since I was young. I knew that from the very beginning. It's kinda like that with the fml. She LIKES being submissive. Yes, irl its a product of the patriarchy but here? She likes it. That's the fucking point. Now, run along and learn to separate fiction from reality and have fun.
I couldn’t have stated it better myself ! It’s very very odd bc she doesn’t even act like an adult
who’s projecting now…
they keep on bring up irl stuff so as an example I used myself. Isn't that something you do to explain? use examples?
I feel like this thread has exploded a bit since I last commented on it so I feel kind of dumb jumping back in but uhh
In this response you were talking to that vvvkkkvvv guy like they were me
(just the part where you said
"My point is that you said it was not objectifying or that it was less objectifying than most straight smuts, and that is simply false")
and I just want to say I don't agree with that individual and I think they are weird lol
Also I don't agree with the people who are like "learn to separate fiction from reality" and I think it's much better to talk about how reality impacts fiction and vise versa (& if anyone isn't interested in that conversation, they can just ignore and move on lol)
In fact (Joho) I agree with pretty much all your points lol
I probably worded my original comment wrong. In my opinion, this is still less dehumanizing than most straight smut (which I shouldn't have lumped in with Josei manga). That isn't to say it isn't still objectifying and misogynistic. Yes there are better ones than this, but the VAST majority are far worse. (And honestly I stay away from most articles in the genre for that reason)
(Now this part is just my read/experience/opinion and isn't meant to disagree with any of your points, because like I said, I do agree with you (and it also isn't important at all so feel free to stop reading here lol))
The reason I'm enjoying this particular story is that she says she's fine with being obedient and a push over, but in reality when she's told to do something she just verbally agrees and then does whatever she wants (if she doesn't mind doing what she was told she does but she definitely has her own thoughts and opinions that manifest in her actions). I find this somewhat subversive to most of what I've seen in this genre (that I admittedly only occasionally dabble in), because most of what I've seen is a "strong independent woman" (or even just a normal jane-doe type woman going about her life) who's only like that because she "hasn't been fucked right". In those cases, it's like her character development is in reverse and she turns into a submissive woman after a man tramples over her "no"s over and over again (or she at least falls in love with him and I hate it. It's. Grating). In this story I see the potential for the opposite. She started out as a supposedly "submissive and obedient" character and so if there is any character development (which tbf, I'm not actually counting on but the possibility has me still reading for now) she'll learn that she actually does have things she cares enough to be disobedient and fight for (she just hasn't encountered them yet) and that she's only been good at being "obedient" up 'til now because it suited her interests. Either that or there's the possibility of her breaking down and discovering how repressed she actually is. (And you can call me an optimist for reading that potential into it, but if I'm disappointed, I'll just drop--it's not that deep for me)
Another kinda subversive and interesting aspect is that she's the one who wants a sexual relationship and doesn't care about the emotional strings attached and her husband is the one who's already head over heels for her and in denial. I find this dynamic very interesting and entertaining.
But yeah, I actually like her character quite a bit atp. She's tolerated her family's bs and control all this time, because at most she found it inconvenient or petty rather than hurtful or harmful. Now that she's out of that situation, she's living her best life. She's free to do pretty much whatever and she's having all the sex she ever wanted
and another opinion of mine is that there aren't enough female characters who blatantly and openly want and enjoy sex (rather than being "shy" about it and saying "no" the entire time and showing no enjoyment in the initiation so it's 100% a sexual assault scene that we're told was "consensual" because she enjoyed it by the end.... It. Grates.), so that's another thing I like about this one
It's not lost on me the inherent misogyny in writing this kind of "submissive and obedient" FL in a porn comic. Even if women like this exist irl and their choices are 100% their own, those choices are not made in a vacuum and are influenced by the wider (very misogynistic) society. I also don't believe telling spreading stories like this is harmless.
But at the end of the day, I find it entertaining enough to read and I'm constantly searching for more media to cram into my empty brain
holyyyyy aint nobody reading this
Yeahhh I know
I really be typing like I'm trying to win the paragraph war (・_・;)
You don’t seem to understand the point of my comment, which is that the fl is most definitely objectified contrary to what the original commenter said and I was listing reasons as to why. I know people like to think this but reality and fiction are never fully separate. “It’s just fiction” has always been a lame excuse to hide from critique. I won’t answer anything else because I already countered every argument you’ve given in my previous comment it just seems you haven’t understood it.
First of all I’m so sorry I thought it was the same person this whole time! I think I did get confused thinking you only meant the josei genre, but it definitely makes more sense now as smut in the shouter seinen category are definitely more likely to dehumanize the fl I completely agree with that. Sorry about that misunderstanding I feel as though I’ve wasted my energy now.
I’m reading your perspective on it and I definitely see what you’re saying, she started off being obedient and a pushover but in the last chapters it’s true that she seems to be realizing that maybe that wasn’t actually her true nature. If it actually goes in the direction you’re thinking I definitely fault myself for judging the author too soon.
While I do understand and I do enjoy watching her do everything she always wanted, it’s also bittersweet personally because of the circumstances that led her to it, at the same time it is the reality of most hyper sexual individuals to have had an unhealthy childhood! I think for me what really doesn’t sit is that when I read this it translated to me that the author made this character to change the ml. In reality ml acts that way not because he’s actually that way, but because he’s afraid of getting hurt again, if it were a woman who wanted a mutual love he could’ve started falling for her but eventually she would’ve done things to trigger him and promote him to push her away as much as possible. Fl instead loved him but didn’t ask for anything in return, she has all the characteristics needed to make him doubt his initial beliefs and keep falling deeper and deeper in love without realizing it. But the fls journey feels flat and lacks that same complexity and character development(so far) especially since she is the main character of this story, I think the author should’ve done more for her. It’s as though she just stays still and takes every hurtful action while she herself is afraid to let it be known that she actually enjoys it as she doesn’t want to seem too dirty, she’s still focused on being his perfect wife who wants what he wants.
I also do enjoy sex positive fl though those are my favorites stories to read and I fully agree with your last paragraph, although I try to avoid these types of manhwas(the concept can be interesting but a lot of the time the story isn’t aware of itself, things just happen without much thought and it feels lazy to me, like if you’re gonna give them tragic backstories then don’t reduce the fl this way) I was drawn to the cute cover and I am the type of person who wants to see the story all the way through. It’s not torturous(like those other straight smuts you mentioned) so I still want to see where it goes.
Forgive me as well for the length of this comments, I too love having discussions like this and sharing thoughts!
Also I JUST had this thought and I wanna bring up this point as well! Like I mentioned in my last comment my main problem with the story wasn’t with the story itself, it’s the fact that this author decided to tell the story in a way which the ml is ruthless and the fl endures it all in the name of love and submission. Specifially the way that he wants to cage her when he realizes he’s in love and thinks she’s fallen for another. She simply accepts it all without any doubt, but in a way, he’s doing to her what her father did. So many authors persist on this narrative that fl should brush off, endure and take every whim of the ml no matter how cruel. The mls journey is more complex and truly shows how he changes overtime but the fl gets scraps in her own story. It’s just very male centered. This is also goes into my point about that fact that the story is not aware of itself!