needaloo

I could ask the people relishing the "straight" scenes the same question. "Just go watch straight porn?" Why would you seek or want "straight" content in a BL/yaoi?

I will clarify that my aversion towards the "straight" scenes was not meant to imply a preference for the forthcoming non-consensual moments between the characters. I avoid "straight" media. You can imagine my surprise when the storyline deviated from my expectations for 6 chapters. I deemed it best to discontinue reading the comic altogether

I harbor no fondness for the "straight" scenes or the anticipated rape scenes; both are equally unpalatable and "weird asf"

i think that the biggest difference in straight smut & yaoi lies in the genre. most bls revolve around smut and authors reuse the same generic plot just so that they can produce something. straight scenes can be inserted in any genre (obvi not bls or gls) bc its purpose, for most part, is fan service, which are more of like a side quest rather than the focus of the story. i guess my point is that the issue with people seeking out bls just to see two men fuck is that they turn into fetishizers rather than just readers.
i think it’s fair to be taken aback bc of the straight smut but to be interested in a story solely for mlm intercourse with no regard for the plot or manner of said mlm intercourse is questionable, esp if ur not a gay man
i don’t think that i articulated very well cause it’s just a comment but it’s whatever

oh and btw i’m not trying to imply that ur not a gay man (unless u arent) so disregard that part cause it was meant to be more of a general statement

True, BL/yaoi authors might rely on gratuitous scenes to sate the appetites of their readership. Is that not a hazard of any genre? "Straight" fanservice is shoehorned with the purpose of tantalizing the reader. It strips away the characters' agency, relegating them to the status of objects to be ogled and consumed. That is fetishization

Those who are not gay men are capable of appreciating the complexities of BL storylines or the significance of intimate scenes between male partners. One need not be a detective to derive pleasure from the intricacies of a well-crafted mystery/thriller/horror, or a gay man to savor the emotional depth of BL

The sensual aspects of BL/yaoi hold a certain allure. But you do have a point. BL/yaoi is more than "smut." I find within the genre a certain poetry—a celebration of a love transcending the boundaries of gender and societal expectation

i agree that straight smut can be fetishized but i feel like its not tl the extent of bl. the fact that many refer to bl characters as simply seme and uke is enough to show that they don’t actually care for the characters or the plot since they are literally reducing these characters to their roles in the bedroom. u wil hardly find a yaoi where people dont refer to the characters as seme and uke, and even in shounen ais, ppl will still try to categorize the characters into top & bottom, which is extremely degrading even if these characters aee fictional. this may be out of pure convenience but u dont see this happening in hetero medias, even the most grotesque ones.
we can agree to disagree on ur second point bc i don’t think that non gay ppl can truly appreaciate the intimacy portrayed in bls. i mean sure anyone can take it up the ass but most mainstream bls rn like jinx, darkfall, potn, have none of the compelling elements that u speak of. i’m sure u read other bls that are not mainstream & are probably using those for reference but since this under “code name anastasia”, i’ve only referred to others of the same nature where readers are more fixated on when the characters are gonna fuck rather than the emotional depth of bl.

WHAT AM SAYING LIKE…

r**e is so normalized in BL now it’s crazy

Dang that read was hard af, your absolutely right lol, a lot of people only really read BL to fetishize two men

Y'all I've been reading BL since I was 9 and I'm 22 now... I know, wild age to start reading BL. Regardless I've been reading for over a decade now and trust me I've seen the SAME damn arguments from day 1. Literally, if you don't like it, don't read gosh damn. Just because you bitch about, doesn't mean it's going to change. BL has been the same since I was 9 and it's the same now. The only difference is the variety in stories are more vast now, and manhwa BLs are just as popular as Japanese BLs now.

The media fetishization of the "straight" lifestyle surpasses so-called "gay fetishization" in severity and prevalence. Dominance and submission are etched into the societal blueprint of man-woman interactions. The man, the penetrator, the active agent, the aggressor, is cast as the dominant "top," and the woman, the penetrated, the passive recipient of said aggression, is cast as the submissive "bottom." You don't see people referring to the man as the "top," the woman as the "bottom," because their bedroom roles are pre-established. They know who will be the "top" or the "bottom"

Man-man, woman-woman dynamic power structures resist easy categorization. Gay "fetishizers," maligned and misunderstood by society, are explorers posing the question of "who's the seme, who's the uke?" to uncover the mysterious choreographies of sexual roles that dance, unbound and untamed, beyond the stifling established always top/always bottom "straight" dynamic. They are not guilty of a crime

A non-gay person can find resonance in the realm of gay affection. Such is the rich, variegated nature of empathy and imagination. Consider a football fan, who, though lacking the athletic abilities of the football players on the field, exults in and appreciates the spectacle of the game. They are spectators, cheering, and eating on the sidelines. A non-gay person is similarly awestruck by the ballet of male-male intimacy. They are passionate and committed to their sports, on the sidelines

Jinx, Painter of the Night, etc, their existence is a celebration of the beauty of gay love. The love that kindles between a hard-hearted boxer and a humble physician, a nobleman and a penniless painter, etc, speaks volumes to the courage and determination of the creators willing to depict emotional, physical intimacy between men

The stories are not without flaws, of course. Laudable in their intent, they could have had a more nuanced exploration of "consent." We should applaud them, and be ever mindful of the ways in which they might fall short

yeah ur right abt the pre established roles within a straight relationship but my point still stands for the categorization of bl characters. do u really think people who read bls are actually explorers in the way u say that they are? maybe that’s how u see them but if u look at the comments of the more popular bls, it is hardly the case. especially when most bls are created through a femal gaze, meaning that it’s impossible for them to illustrate and narrate the essence of what it means to be a gay man in love. i think that there’re plenty if stories where creators, which are women, invest in understanding the dynamic of a mlm romance and they portray it in a way that does not reduce the characters to simply just top & bottom but i can’t say the same about the readers.
the difference between a football fan and a non gay person is that a football fan has the ability to be more than just a spectator. only a gay man can truly fathom the depth of mlm romance as they are capable of the same thing.
we can continue to disagree on the so called beauty and depth that u give to jinx & potn. i may be biased bc i dropped both stories but i just can’t see how the stories are a celebration of the beauty of gay love. i’m jinx specifically, & again i haven’t actually read it but from what people say, there is hardly any love that kindles between a hard hearted boxer and a humble physician. this is solely my opinion but i don’t think that there is anything commendable about the way mingwa portrays mlm love in jinx bc there’re so many ways to add depth and emotion to raw intimacy without recycling the same non con scenes to push the story forward. i would also just like to say that my problem isn’t with non con itself (since there’re instances where it’s not out of character or where it adds to a plot), but if it’s the only thing that u rely on to seek pleasure, if it’s the only thing that drives the story forward, if it’s the only way to express tragedy or comlplexity in a character or a plot, then maybe it’s just not that good of a story.

A football fan can immerse themselves in the world of football, analyzing strategies, debating statistics, and participating in local matches. This involvement does not give them a complete understanding of what it is like to be a professional football player. Not everyone is graced with the athletic gift to ascend the ranks of footballing legends

Only gay men experiencing the full spectrum of the emotions that color their relationships does not negate the ability of non-gay people to observe, understand, and create compelling stories around gay experiences. Should one be a fish to navigate the depths of the ocean? Or a dragon to pen fantastical stories of fiery creatures? The ocean of love beckons all who would explore its depths. Its exploration is not a domain reserved for those experiencing it firsthand

The popular Manhwas you mentioned would have benefited from refinement, that's for sure. There's always room for improvement

Regarding Jinx's narrative trajectory, the kindling of love between the boxer and his physician is certain. Our conflicted boxer will come to terms with the folly of his ways and realize the error in his treatment of his beloved partner. The progression is very, very slow for now

We didn't see eye to eye on every point, and that's okay. I value the thoughts you've shared during our conversation

i still don’t agree with ur analogies but our exchange was interesting. we can just agree to disagree cause i’m not trying to play savior or come off as a holier than thou person since this is just my personal opinion.

Your absolutely correct, you brought in a perspective that no one wants to call out because it makes them uncomfortable. I mean this damn comment section is an exact reflection of that. The fact that people are more angry at a consensual straight sex scene than the fact that there's a future rap scene between the two men is very telling. This is honestly the sma thing I saw with lost in the cloud. People being angry that there isn't any explicit sex but more effort into delving into these characters relationship with each other. Some people might get angry at this but a lot of people fetishize gay and queer relationships. Especially straight women. They tend to project their fantasies onto real life men or fictional characters for their own personal gain. And the individual who replied to you seems to forget that with a lot of bl heterosexual dynamics are heavily pushed, and has honestly become this only narrative to portray gay and queer relationships. A lot of these stories aren't written for true representation of queer individuals but for content people can fetishize. This is just my opinion, I feel like you brought a lot to the table that people just aren't ready to talk about

Also that person definitely used ai to write their comments, I know cause chatgpt has a certain writing style lol. They have a certain understanding of storytelling and characters, but not enough to truly delve into the sociopolitical and nuances of queer stories

@Yoonald

That's incorrect. People aren't more angry at "straight" scenes than future rape scenes. We are angry at both

I don't agree that "straight" activities can be consensual. Gender roles and expectations place women in a submissive position, where they are indoctrinated to believe that their value is tied to their ability to please men. The heterosexist paradigm undermines the principle of consent. A woman selling her body to men, pleasing men, or catering to male gratification would therefore be a transgression against her bodily integrity

NSFW "straight" scenes reduce women and men to objects of desire for the satisfaction of the audience. They are a form of fetishization and not a true representation of "straight" identifying people. I don't see how you can reconcile your misguided opposition to the "fetishization" of gay relationships with your misguided support for the continued fetishization of the "straight" lifestyle

@Yoonald

I'm flattered that you believe my writing style is so good, it could pass for AI generated! I assure you, I'm a real person with real understanding of the complexities of "queer" stories. I know enough to say that "BL/yaoi fetishizes gay men" is a load of hogwash

@Yoonald

Why did you block me? Did my natural wit and sharp tongue scare you off?

@Yoonald

Evidence that my comments are not AI-generated: https://imgur.com/7YajRLT

@Yoonald

More evidence that my comments are not AI-generated: https://imgur.com/fxiiVY8