Just_here_to_yap's Topics (151)

what you're saying is coming off as needlessly antagonistic in a way that it doesn't have to be and suggests that you may not have really engaged with existing discussions about these issues, and racism especially.

the difference in response to this means that more people are better equipped to recognize, react to, and condemn racism than they might be for exploitative relationships, abuse, rape, incest, and pedophilia (although i think pedophilia also gets more consistent pushback). that's because of extensive real life organizing and campaigning against racism! there have also been movements against abuse, domestic violence and rape, (remember Me Too?), but societal change is a multifaceted endeavor, and not comprehensive at all times. there's a lot of minimizing and excuses for those things (see the litany of thought-terminating cliches: "it's just fiction" "fiction doesn't affect reality" "it's not that deep" and so on). not to mention that you can see how some people are indulging their racism and minimizing the horrors of history to defend and mourn and rage about this series, so it's not even like everyone is unanimously against racism!

often, the people speaking out against one of those issues are also vocal about the rest, but those people often get dismissed, insulted, and harassed for it (often by the same people trying to "gotcha!" with the "you guys only care about Black people and/or racism" accusation). no one can be everywhere at once, and movements require support.

with song of the wasteland, the combination of subject matter, visibility from the creator's popularity and international attention contributed to pressuring the platform and creator to change their plans. if anything, this situation suggests some tactics that people can use to address those other issues if people are aware and organized enough. people were being vocal on social media, emailing the publisher directly about their concerns, and threatening to boycott the publisher/platform. money and reputation (which affects their ability to make money in the future) are effective targets. if you're someone who actually, seriously cares about how poorly things like exploitative relationships, abuse, rape, incest, and pedophilia are used in BL/media in general, that would be the big takeaway.

Thanks for calling that out, i see what you mean. I wasn't trying to downplay the racism in Jaxx's work or dismiss why people were upset about it, cause that definitely needed accountability.

I was just frustrated with how inconsistent people are about extreme themes on here in general. But yeah i get that comparing real world racial trauma to fictional dark tropes made it sound like i was deflecting, wasn't my intention at all.

it's more about how you bring it up and talk about it., which i'm sensitive towards because of how people have been ridiculously disingenuous about this whole situation.

there have been two camps making accusations of hypocrisy over this, but with different intentions/thought processes behind it. they both end up belittling or undermining efforts to confront specifically antiBlack racism, though. (you were sounding too much like camp 2 here)

camp 1 says "everything else goes, but not this?"
subtext: "why can't we get away with this?"
camp 1 is making a disingenuous accusation of hypocrisy or single-minded focus on a (read: trivial, inconsequential) issue, and is often, though not always, trying to insinuate that Black people are the real racists for... caring about racism directed at us and how racial issues are depicted and discussed. they're just trying to muddy the waters of the discussion, because they ultimately never want to hear criticism or any application of critical thought to media that depicts immoral behavior because they enjoy it for whatever reason and don't want to spoil or risk stopping their enjoyment in any capacity. there's also just run-of-the-mill racists and racist trolls in this category.

camp 2 says "so all the abuse/incest/pedophilia/rape/orientalism/etc. is okay, but racism isn't?"
subtext: "why don't you care enough about/act on behalf of *my* issue?"
camp 2 has a somewhat more legitimate basis for calling out hypocrisy that is undercut by their framing of the issue. they would find more support for or less hostility towards their causes if their entrance into the present topic was more, "i'm happy your problem got addressed, could you help me with mine?" or like, listening and learning, instead of "how come *you* got something you wanted, and *i* didn't?". it's needlessly antagonistic and reveals that the person saying it hasn't really engaged with with existing discussions about these issues, and racism especially. at "best" it comes off as jealousy of the so-called "privileged" position of Blackness on issues of racism, not recognizing that any such 'privilege' or 'prioritization' arises from necessity in much the same way as a person in critical condition requires more immediate and persistent care than someone with a serious, but more stable condition (in the medical sense). at worst, it comes off as entitlement to the social justice activity of Black people as if we're machines to dispense protest and dissent as needed. the fact is that Black people are just *people* in every sense of the word, and so some people advocate for themselves out of self-preservation and self-interest, not necessarily from a greater sense of justice or righteousness. this is where you'll find the most "hypocrisy" because some people are just looking out for themselves, which is common, although i'd bet that some of it is simply an unfair set of expectations aimed at people assumed to be fighting for all justice all the time. raising the foundation lifts the whole structure, so gains for Black people results in gains further up the hierarchy, fueling that assumption/expectation/entitlement for people in the middle ranks.
we don't have to play the "who has it worse" game and try to rank suffering and atrocities in order for issues to be taken seriously, when we could just be asking, "why doesn't this issue get addressed properly? what could make that happen?" and working from there. you'll find that some issues are consistently neglected or exacerbated in particular ways. you'll often find common enemies and better make allies that way.
people usually concentrate their attention and efforts on one or a few things at a time. there's no need to insinuate that "some people" are unfairly taking all the attention and resources from the thing you care about as if it's a zero-sum game where they're all in competition. if anything, a gain for one issue benefits the others, if you can recognize the connections between them.
the people in camp 2 may not be outright, consciously racist or dismissive of taking media seriously, but they certainly have unexamined biases surrounding racial issues (particularly with Black people) and assumptions of "justice" and "fairness".

both of these groups perceive the people they're accusing of hypocrisy as a monolithic entity of "blacks and their associates who are too loud about things that don't matter (because only my arousal does)" [camp 1] and "blacks and their associates who aren't loud enough about things that actually matter (my issue)" [camp 2].

there has been a lot of poor wording at best, and malicious intent at worst surrounding this whole thing. there is a ton of discussion and education about the role of media in propagating ideas, stereotypes, and propaganda that affects how people think and behave IRL when it comes to race because of activism surrounding that, relatively moreso than there is for the contentious topics of immorality in stuff like BL/fiction in general (though it's definitely out there). that, and the level of attention most works get is way lower than this, so there isn't a perfect storm of 1) people knowledgeable and aware of an issue as it relates to fiction and 2) attention from multiple sources in and outside of BL readership that led to the informal pressure campaign that affected this series.

in conclusion:
there would be a lot less hypocrisy if people were more consistently willing to entertain serious, analytical and critical thought about the media they engage with, even the so-called mindless porn, because nothing is made or consumed in a vacuum.

I appreciate your effort to explain your point, but trying to fit me into pre-made "camps" and assuming my motives based on generic internet arguments isn't accurate.

I have never dismissed racism, nor do I fit into either category you described. I was simply sharing my own frustration with double standards and how inconsistent reader reactions affect everyone in the community. This isn't just MY issue, it affects everyone.

I’m stepping away from this thread now, but I wanted to make sure my actual words and intent were clear rather than being defined by a structure I never agreed to.

oh, sorry. i was trying to make it more clear that i don't want to discourage people from talking about what you brought up, because i do want it brought up more! just in a less oppositional way to the topic of racism because i didn't think you were trying to dismiss racism, but it could have been worded or framed differently. i also was trying to give some context for what i said because i was noticing some recurring points.

Okay, no worries! Thanks for clarifying!

Can I ask you how old you are?

No, you may not.

Omg, same here. I do get that they both had a strong bond. But in the end of the day, Ian just followed along with what TJ wanted. In my mind Jo was always the second main character. That first scene where he takes Ian pictures by accident was almost like “and kids, that’s how I met your dad” kind of thing. You all can tell me that it was obvious since the beginning and I am usually 90% agreeing with the couple the author ends the history with but for this one, sorry I cannot see it. It took us for a ride from the past to the present and then ended with the past. I did cried in the end bc Jo is absolutely precious and he did not deserved to be misled like he was

Someone's get it .

First nobody asked POOR NANJO BABY TO DEVELOP WHORE SAVING COMPLEX THAT HE IS DOING , I am sick of nanjo saying abusers say that way and yada yada your poor abused seohwa WANTED MOKYEON IN THIS THREESOME SITUATION STOP BLAMING MOKYEON FOR THE CRAP HE WANTS , NOPE I don't think any person is sane in this manwha nobody none

That doesn't change shit. Mokyeon has constantly been breaking the promise, doing what he wants and also expects that nanjo accept him and indulge in his delusions and give him constant attention. Also nanjo isn't a POOR BABY he's an ADULT who is far BETTER then those two is what I meant and I just wished he leaves these two behind and learns to put HIMSELF 1st not these two. Also it's not HIS buisness to feel sorry for their ass. Also obviously none of US are same if we are reading this? Also half of the things you mentioned are not even my own words? And ofcourse I don't agree. Also no need to send a reply cause I won't reply back, it takes a ton of time to write and I just wanted to clarify. Hope you have a nice day and let's not let a manhwa get too much into our head, shall we?