joo's Topics (10)

It can mean a lot of things, but typically it means shock or disbelief. That's why you see it a lot in situations like that or sudden confessions or whatever.

All y'all who downvoted that comment need to see a psychotherapist, STAT. Rape and coercion are felonies.

Comment got downvoted because duh, everyone knows this already. And because other readers are smart enough to know that within the context of the story, these elements function as metaphors.

Metaphor? That's a really lame way to attempt to legitimize rape as an act of romantic love. I've seen instances of dubious consent in other manga that clearly do further the story of a serious relationship. This wasn't one of them.

The 147 people who tagged this manga as a romance, and the 97 who tagged it as hot - as well as those who put it on hot & possessive lovers lists - got off on it. I think that's really troubling. But hey, if all you got out of my objection is that I'm not as smart as you, good on ya, li'l buckaroo.

Abuse is not healthy. I'm done with you.

Ok? Pick a fight with the author if you feel so strongly about it...?

lol m8, this is only a metaphor. But I agree with you in some parts, rape or whatever you just said is not romance. And again, it's only a metaphor, this story is not telling us to rape our love ones, our crushes, or whatever, it's not telling us to force them either.

I'm not suggesting that the manga was intended as an instruction manual. What I am saying is that eroticizing abuse does affect the reader. It normalizes it and attaches an attractive sexualization to it. I'm not as concerned about older adult readers, whose self-image and tastes have already been formed, but younger readers are still establishing their own identities.

I'm not even remotely fond of censorship, and I think teens should have as much access to smut as they like - they're already becoming sexual beings - but they're still developing. I think that sexualizing/romanticizing abuse may have formative consequences for these readers, as evidenced by all the squeeing over the kind of abuse that no one should ever tolerate in real life.

Ravishment fantasies have existed in the human psyche long before literature caught up with them. So it's the fantasy that has created the literature, not the other way around. It's a highly normative fantasy that is a healthy part of human sexuality, particularly for women. Literature like this provides a safe place for women to explore those feelings. Or it SHOULD, without people like you, weighed down by negative social baggage, criticizing them. If you don't have faith that readers know the difference between fiction and reality, that is your problem, not the book's. Normalizes, shmormalizes. If that was the case, then Hannibal or The Godfather or American Psycho or any number of other works of fiction are problematic, no? No. People aren't that stupid and they don't need a nanny to tell them what they should and shouldn't read.

thanks a logical comment. to all of you who are using the excuse this is a metaphor, a fantasy, blah, blah. let me tell you japan's eternal problem since ancients times: in japanese society does not take rape seriously. in japan rape get an unusual green light for it, even from authorities. I'm a former human rights advocates of 15+, and I deal a lot with human traffik and sexual crimes. Japan always have problems with sexual crimes. but japanese society is one of shame and appearances. the reason why japan show low statistics is because of the fear of all types victims suffer and never report it. but the reality is japan is one of the highest in rape in Asia and there's a possibility worldwide. Japan has been always a favorite tourist place for pedos and perverts in general. japaneses government always put an effort to hide under the rugs instead of dealing with it. one thing clear is that manga/anime fans are the most ignorants and clueless about japanese sexual crimes. just in 2014 child porn material was illegalized finally, BUT manga got a free pass.

educate yourselves:

http://www.ajwrc.org/english/sub/voice/21-1-2.pdf

http://www.ajwrc.org/eng/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=5&cid=1

http://www.ajwrc.org/eng/modules/myalbum/viewcat.php?cid=1&num=10&orderby=titleD&pos=0

http://www.nippon.com/en/currents/d00171/

You could make that argument anywhere? Like seriously, written paper material anywhere that involves "fantasized rape", and the country would have sexualized crimes behind it. Manga is probably only a small part of it, but the fact that its online and open is why you're only targeting Japan, trying to make a "point".

shut up kid! I'm a former human rights activist that I started before internet became available to many people (mid 90's). I know too well the problems from countries all over the world. We are talking about japan because is where most mangas are created. And like any form of art is influenced by the good and bad from where writers grew up. In US you see the rape culture through tv, like reality shows, music, etc. In Japan this is show in mangas and anime. and this particular problem in japan comes from ancients times that perpetuates to this day. those links I posted are from one of the most important organizations created by a japanese women and is still a leading orgs dealing with womens rights in Japan and Asia. do yourself a favor, EDUCATE yourself. trying to talk about rights to a human rights activist its like trying to talk about diseases to a doctor, education to a teacher, science to scientists, etc. you get what I mean kiddo?!?! I don't try to make any point for the exception to educate about serious problems to indifferent sheeples people like you. anime and mangas fanatisism is not different to that of sports, religion fanatism. too many japanese women and men suffer daily because of it, and also foreign, especially those with immigrant status problems. men have it hard since japanese law don't consider rape anal sex or anything that isn't vagina-penis.

apart from the green light japanese society gives to sexual crimes; japaneses police are well know to ignore all crimes that doesn't have clear evidence at hands, to keep the statistics low and keep bragging to the world about low crimes. can you imagine low crime with the mafia in Italy, US, Colombia or countries where they are?!?! nope right, then why suddenly in japan with yakuzas are low.. . this is just a little example. but wonder if kids like you can actually get it. done here and don't bother to whine back, just fucking educate yourself for fuck's sakes >.>

It's interesting that you say people who don't agree with you need psychotherapy. What do you tell people in your everyday day life when they don't agree with you... something like "I'm not your friend anymore"? Lol!! There are sooooo many stories that have sooo many people make these same comments that its old hat. You're the only one who decided that other people who don't agree with you need mental help. Interesting and kinda of a bratty attitude. People can read stories and have a positive or negative reaction to such stories and have their own opinions, BUT its insulting to some to suggest therapy in such a way as you did.

Shut up yourself, former human rights activist. Some of us still are human rights activists, nothing former about us, and we don't buy the correlation equals causation fallacy and never have. You're in the wrong place if you think anyone here supports real rape. Stop shouting at women and take your bloated ego back to church.

You're the one acting like a kid though? And you're the one whining about being a "human rights activist", if all you do is bitch and moan then you're hardly what you label yourself. Why don't you try doing something about it, instead of bitching on an anime website for starters.

{YAAAWN}

you go back to church. proud atheist here. yes former since illness prevent form working on it. if you think you're a human rights just because you support through internet and though you're wrong, it's an actual work that needs physical and mental clarity and health. and also you should know about japan's problem... even thousands of japanese people are trying to persuade their government to ban all adult mangas and animes because of the romanticize of rape, pedos, etc and the problem behind it. but you should know about this since you claim to be an activist right. and the problem is the romanticize of it not writing about it.

I've got plenty of street cred, sunshine, and the trouble with riding a high horse is you want to make sure your ass isn't wide open and exposed first. If you want support for your "cause", then prove the correlation between yaoi fangirls reading ravishment fantasies and then going out and raping gay men. Because until you can? You're in the WRONG reading section.

Amazing that you call yourself an atheist, when you act like a witch-burning fundamentalist.

I've worked in sexual assault services, legal education and action funds and crisis intervention for years and building and supporting women's shelters. You're blowing smoke out your ass if you think that reading fictional accounts of rape in yaoi manga or any other romance genre is anything like the actual experience of actual sexual assault in real life.

Furthermore, Europe and North America have no right to lecture any other culture or nation on sexual assaults or other crimes, and if you want to get into a stats war over it, I'll stomp you with them.

I have to applaud your argument.

Hey, Wow. It's not even my kink, but it pisses me off when self-righteous harpies get on these boards and start screaming at mostly young girls because of the way their inner sexual experiences are wired, accusing them of taking the stories literally, and supporting rape and political oppression. TOTAL BULLSHIT! It's like having a conversation with a cabbage, because they don't understand how the female libido works for most women. So they try to suppress it. Like that's going to work out well ....

Hey. Trying to make anyone feel guilty about something they read and enjoy is also a violation in a way. It's like saying Only my opinion counts and you're trash and not worthwhile because you like this stuff. I actually was raped when I was younger and I still occasionally read some stories like this. If I come across a story that is TOO much I quit reading it. I don't bash the story or the other readers for liking it because I don't have the right to judge them for that. That's why I like your argument.

I must also appauld you.
I mean to me.
It's like saying all people that play certain video games are murdering psychopaths that will kills us all.

You aren't the only one, Wow. I bet if you took a straw poll of the readers on this site, the numbers of girls, women, men and boys who've been assaulted or molested or harassed would reflect those in the general reading population. The fact that so many survivors do read these stories is proof that the experience exists in a different paradigm—one largely ruled by control, something which does not exist in real rape. Control is also one of the keys to why so many rape survivors actually find fictional accounts like those in romance and yaoi therapeutic, even healing, something which flies against conventional wisdom. But that's how it goes.

Like you, I click out when I don't like the story. I don't need to shame people for finding their tensions released in stories that are too much for me. Sometimes I will leave a comment to remind me why I didn't like the story, but it's usually ticked "for private viewing only".

Bwahahaha!!! Or like I started reading Harlequin romance novels when I was 11 or 12 and saying because of that I probably turned out to be a slut, but I was a virgin til I was 19 and married. Lol! Go figure! Anyway.Thanks for the support and such. Not just from me but also from other people who may have been hurt or upset reading such small minded comments. (●'◡'●)ﾉ

Btw, just in case it didn't make sense. The rape happened after my first marriage.

Thank you. And you're right. They aren't going after other media for displays of vicious violence because they know they haven't got a hope in hell of convincing anyone. Instead, they get their trollish jollies trying to slut-shame young girls. I suspect most of them are middle-aged white male pedophiles.

Thanks also to you I Thot You Was a Toad. Not only from me but from others who may have felt upset about such comments. ヾ(☆▽☆)

It could've happened during your marriage. For all I knew, it could've been your first husband. That happens more often than with strangers.

No need for thanks. Those comments upset me, too.

It was actually my 2nd. Long story short. I divorced him and 3rd time was a charm because my husband now and I have been married for going on 10 yrs.

If it stays charming, I hope it goes on longer than the proverbial Celine Dion song. *kicks second husband in my imagination* Whoops, better not do that. According to the logic of the anti-yaoi faction, that's a direct physical assault.

Lol!! Uh oh!!

I was frantically searching for a "thumbs up" button for this comment. Then I noticed mangago doesn't have one. If they did then I would have clicked on it several times by now (& thousand times in my mind).

I'm fine with people not liking rape as a trope in stories. I'm not fine when they troll other readers who don't see it the same way. They are mistaken and evil-minded.

hahahaha lol after reading the whole shit. yo' the one pushy with your shit into the gal. gal wrote to a person, not general comment and you barged in bitching. because you dislike what she wrote. how annoying are entitled princess like you. man, i'm waiting to see stuff backing your opinion. at least she posted links. i checked by curiosity and the site are the real deal. show your stuff princess!

LOL, nope, still can't prove that racy manga has yaoi fangirls going off raping people. Keep squeezing that shit out your buttcheeks, troll, and calling it sugar, though. Other trolls like Kjerkoff will eat it up. When you're done shouting and trying (unsuccessfully, but hell, that never stops idiots like you) to slut-shame girls and women, do you also prowl playgrounds looking for unsupervised kids to abduct? Or has the psychosis not advanced to that stage yet? Reddit's must have gotten boring now that they're shutting down the MRA sites.

Websites don't mean jack when people aren't paying any attention to them, and so far the response from the Japanese government to your "activism" has been a big yawn, and the kick in the pants, "It's fiction."

In other words, they think you're psychotic to confuse fiction with real life, just like the rest of us. You have to prove causation, not just correlation. Meantime, manga keeps getting more popular and more profitable.

your activism? yo' what activism are you talking about? lololl i asked about stuff to back up your opinion too. i get into this forum after friend passed to me the link. she was pissed by the comments in it. our friend got raped almost a years ago. we happily serve her sweet justice, sending the scum to hospital, now in induced coma almost 3 months. just show back up your words or your just sayin' shit. this type of mangas are just promotion of rape.

If that's so any video games like GTA or any violent video game heck even anime with gore
are doing the same. Or how people say Pokemon promotes animal abuse.
You don't see me getting pissed though and shaming people that are most likely very young. One of my close family members was shot and killed in a robbery at a local store one day they were alive the next dead, I'll never hear or see him again.

Instead of staying here venting on a book, go out there,
do something that will effect the world instead of going on a not very well known site.
For example those actual rapist that got a get out of jail free card. Protest against them.

Toad already supported her claims to activism on various threads from way back and has also provided more specific examples of work in Amsterdam and on Vancouver's East Side, among other places. It is not incumbent on any member of this site to provide details that may dox their identities and shame on you for demanding it.

Besides, the sort of censorship you advocate was already quashed by the US Supreme Court in 1964 with Grove Press, Inc. v. Gerstein, citing Jacobelli vs. Ohio. If the US government, with its culture wars and evangelical block voters, won't even support it, good luck trying to strong-arm Japan into doing so.

Your claims to activism sound exactly like old-fashioned censorship to me, exactly the opposite of human rights. You seek to silence women. Yaoi is written by women for women, and the rape trope in yaoi is a form of the ravishment fantasy scenario. We know this because the readers who enjoy the rape trope in yaoi tell us so. Yaoi isn't the only place where you will find it, either. It is popular in every form of romance fiction, as well as ordinary fiction. It is a popular trope, not only in manga, literature and other forms of art, but in Classical art, mythology, and history. Look up the Sabine Women. It was even turned into a hugely popular musical and a movie that won an Academy Award.

Why? Because 60 per cent of women claim to experience the ravishment fantasy as part of their sex lives and they are quite healthy and sane. They are probably a good deal more comfortable with their sexuality than you, from the sound of it, so good luck trying to shame them into dropping the trope. There are ample studies to support this which have been quoted in past discussions. Look them up. Do your homework, "activist", before making claims that you cannot substantiate.

Speaking of substantiation, you and your "activist" friend were asked to provide evidence to support your claims that yaoi readers "promote rape" (your words) and you haven't done so. You haven't drawn that all important link between the ravishment fantasy and rape tropes in yaoi manga and the actual perpetration of sexual crimes. You haven't shown any examples of yaoi readers who have perpetrated sexual violence as a result of reading rape trope yaoi manga. You can't because it doesn't exist, because it hasn't happened, and there isn't a reader on this site who doesn't know this, except you. Rape tropes do not promote sexual violence, and you cannot prove that they do. Your hypothetical statements that there is a connection are invalid and unsupportable.

And you have a "friend-who-was-raped" whataboutery. There are survivors on this site who contradict you directly. They have as much freedom to read whatever manga as you. I don't think anybody is sorry that your "friend's" rapist got sent to jail, if that happened. Were you expecting us to defend him or feel sorry? Sorry to disappoint, but no. Nobody supports real life sexual violence, and most of us (apart from a few like you) know the difference between fiction and fantasy.

This manga also has a warning label, strongly indicated rape-trope tag and many, many spoilers and reviews to ward off readers who are triggered. There is no excuse for any responsible adult to read this who does not want to read a rape-trope story. Tort does not apply if you cannot be bothered to heed the warnings.

To sum up: You are no human rights activist. You want to censor art and free speech, which is the antithesis of human rights.

The rape trope is not a promotion of rape in real life, but an expression of the ravishment fantasy and a healthy aspect of female sexuality. If you claim otherwise, you don't understand female sexuality.

You don't do your homework. You don't substantiate your claims. When you cannot substantiate your claims, so you
"shout at girls on the internet" instead. Psssst, it isn't effective, because most women who read yaoi have long since gotten past being shamed about their sexuality.

The warning labels are there for a reason. If you're on an adult site and cannot take adult responsibility for what you read, you have no business being here.

Hot Damn! Remind me to never get into an argument with you and Toad. Amazin! Applause to you also.

http://giphy.com/gifs/reaction-applause-b9aScKLxdv0Y0#

O gawd this is beauty. Such evidence and support. I wish i could like your comment.

Except the part where I misread "hospital" as "prison". Too bad, if they had succeeded in sending the rapist to prison, that would've been impressive, because I know how hard it is. Sending him to hospital doesn't make them any different than him. Here, she's ranting against girls who read yaoi for "promoting rape" and, in the same breath, confessing online to criminal assault. How stupid can you get?

Toad wades right in. I mostly sit back and watch her do the lifting.

This self-styled activist with her cause lost it. She's mixed up her targets, too. Never mind. Let her do her own homework.

I noticed that, but figured you were so eloquent we all could let that slide. (▰˘◡˘▰). Interesting how proud of themselves they were too. Anyway. I usually also stay out of convos like this because other people seem to be able to get my thoughts across so much easier than I could. I actually didn't like the the follow up comment by the original person that people who "thumbs downed" their comment needed psychotherapy. Like people who don't agree need mental help. Just didn't like that aaaand then proceeded to see rest of convo and had to put in my 2 cents. ╮(￣▽￣)╭

yo' fuckin nuts? when did i say i was a human rights activist or whatever? my friend just passed me the fucking link. i'm the only one commenting. i don't see comments from her or anything from her here. or her account in here. she don't read yaoi. what evidence are you talking about? where the fuck you asked about evidence or whatever to her, when she ain't commenting or me? and how could you know which is her account and she's my friend? what's wrong with you? no one asked me any evidence or whatever. i did ask about links to see different opinions points. i don't give an actual fuck what the other entitled princess do and where her nice lovely life send her or you. like we say on streets of doubled faced sharks, people bitching about others when they are doing the same shit and lying. you sound like pushin your shit too. and yo' where the fuck i talked to you before nuttin princess?

whataboutery? what the fuck is that? are you making fun of my friend rapes yo' fucking bitch? i don't give a shit about confessing here that me and other friend sent the scum to hospital. i was told doctors induced him a comma. thats how we roll on streets. glad i don't have an account in here. what a bunch of fucking wweird and annoying people. fuck!

That's the trouble with being a troll, XXX. Nobody believes you.

Your friend "doesn't read yaoi" but passed you the link because she was "pissed off by the comments".

RFLOL, whoops.

I appreciate anyone like you, Toad, Pacgirl, Zomplode, XHolic, JUnleashed or Donna who speak up against the people who come here just to abuse the readers, which is what XXX just admitted to doing. What a creep. People talk about this being a safe place for yaoi lovers, and it's people like you who make it so. I've been lax. I won't be in the future.

Yeah I do the same thing. I'm just not good at getting my thoughts out as well as others can. xD

Right back at ya! ヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~

again when i talked to you before? stupid because you are a mommys girl locked in a glass bubble. keep in there little princess, you don't stand and survive the real life out here for even a week. we had rules in here and our way of rulin, from the small to the ups. don't compare me to a rapist fuckin' bitch. we ain't saints. we live the hard way. but we don't abuse weak people. forbidden to lay hands, on kids, women, old people. and again what fucking activism are you talking about? what fucking homework? whats your problem with me to make up shit?

if i don't talk to you, you don't talk to me gottit princess. i don't remember talking to you. i only asked about links to another nuttin.

They proved our point too! Wasn't that amazing?ヾ(☆▽☆)

ROFLMFAO!

Who are you pretending to be this time?

It doesn't look like anyone's threatened or impressed. Sucks to be you.

Talk here, you talk to everyone. And everyone gets to talk back.

If it was possible to like replies to comments, I would.
I applaud you, for you are awesome

I certainly still impressed. Man it kind of makes me want to practice
so I can express myself better in the future. :D

Me 2!

entitled bitch princess yo' the one takin trouble to feed me. yo' the pissy bitchin back. takin time to answer and makin shit up. i didn't talk to you. yo' forgot that you give me attention first, you FEED me first bitch princess. F E E D M E. suck it. yo' pissy pissy. it's online no one can see your stupid annoyed face. don't worry. the other entitled annoyed princess don't care about it. they also feed me. yo' ain't lonely bitch. i only made one question. and i was serious about it then. wanted to read about different opinion. and yall entitled bitches princess went all nuttin. takin time, givin me attention, and the best making shit up., and i'm a liar just like you. because i only asked a person about links, and you invented a whole of shitl. people not pissed by trolls ignore them. internet is not a place for princess.

yo' bubblehead because the site suggest it. People like xxxxxxx also like. you couldn't think about riiiight.

HIGH-larious. That's one raging case of butthurt.

Yep. Still can't prove causation. Gotta make up a new identity and deflect fast.

Uh-huh. "I'm only here to TROLLOLOL. Why nobody take me srzly? With added yo.

Yo' gluesniffer. The site thinks it's funny when x-tards get their asses kicked.

Lol! Did you mean to make that a pun?

Sure thing. *shifty eyes* Mm-hmm. It's what it gets for underestimating yaoi fangirls. We know how to put our reading material to use.

LMAO!!! And you did it very well!

Hee!

True.The thing that surprises me the most is, WHY does people take a work of fiction so seriously? When mature explicit contents/subjects like rape exist in all forms of media. I know there are trolls here but there are some people here who are commenting seriously too. It's just beyond my understanding. If what people read, made them, then I, myself would have turned into a psycho/killer/rapist/lesbian/monster long ago.

Japan does not need outside help to deal with their social issues. a lot of rapes go unreported in the west, Middle East, Afr. Central America and EU not just JPN. there are many reasons a victim does not come forward, far to many to state here. One being no support system and shame and death, In the many places the victim will be blamed . Rape is as old as man(and woman) and just as complex it has long been used as a tool of war. Manga did not invent it ,neither did Japan. when the French do it ( the filmed rape scene) they call it art and get away with it.

True,
if what people read or watch made them. With all the video games, mainstream American tv shows, and books I read. I would've been a psychopath long ago.

Hello. Gosh, I go offline for awhile because I have a life, and it ends up being Mardi Gras on the interwebs (as concerns this Little Corner of Yaoi.)

Which serious commenter? Would that be the first one, Joo, who crapped all over the manga, then crapped over everyone who downvoted her, and after her arguments were systematically dismantled and it became clear she was intellectually outgunned, flounced?

Troll.

Or, was that Kjibob-formerly-known-as-kjirkoh, the "former activist" whose account is a total sock-puppet (possibly that of Joo), came here to crap all over Japan and make fallacious connections between its cultural industries and nonexistent sexual assault stats, and to crap all over the readers here for not buying into her bigoted and female-sexuality-averse pet project, in some misguided dog-whistle bump up the stats on some external websites which may or may not have anything to do with her? And who, then, when challenged on the core premise of her arguments, that Japan (and, by extension, ALL of Asia) needs to be singled out and that there is some sort of magical leap between reading yaoi and raping people, flounced?

Total troll. And bigot. And idiot who doesn't understand what human rights really mean.

Or, would that be the last troll who rolled in after I was gone for my evening, XXX, staunch self-styled "ghetto defender" of those "po' l'il women-folk" who can't defend themselves or their arguments (ie., probably an MRA Schmucktivist) and ... yeah, yeah, how young do you have to be to believe any of that crap, so let's drop that ... and, rather obviously, tried to taunt me into doxxing myself? Here's a big hand-clap for lame attempts to impress us with his chivalry (defending po' l'il rape victims) by (1) ignoring Wow's public testimony and completely ignoring/wiping away her feelings and experiences as a survivor, (2) admitting to probably culpable homocide online (probably fake: it sounds like the imaginary day-dream construct of a 12-year-old), (3) demanding we all suck his (nonexistent) dick, and (4) trying to cow us with how we wouldn't survive on the streets.

Again, total troll ... and flaming asshole. It's kind of hilarious to read how he got his butt handed to him.

That makes for zero serious commenters who are not trolls ... (I'm going to continue this in another post.)

That's not to say there aren't serious commenters who are not trolls and who did not, for some reason, show up on this thread. There are some who just don't like the rape trope and, after saying so, leave it at that. Fine. No problem. Don't read if you don't like. There are lots of warnings and tags. Lots of "Beyond here, there be dragons." I think, as Juno pointed out, we have an expectation that, if they are lurking on an adult website which includes porn, they will act like adults and take responsibility for reading things that don't please them.

As for the rest, I think you answered your own question: no understanding. I would add "no desire to understand because of a core and misguided belief in their moral superiority".

If it's just a matter of not understanding, then they are willing to go through the process of learning. When they are told about ravishment fantasy being such a common experience for healthy adult women and their sexuality, they google those studies (which are plentiful) and accept that it doesn't have to be their "thing", but it doesn't make those who enjoy it, lesser in any way; it's just different. When they are challenged on their correlation equals causation fallacies, they realize that they have no evidence and cannot provide proof, so they accept the counter-arguments and bow to the wishes of those on the side of sexual liberty and freedom of artistic expression, basic human rights. When they are challenged on the notion that Japan is exceptional in any way from the rest of the world for its misbegotten and benighted attitudes toward sexual assault, and that it's cultural industries are, somehow, magically at fault for this, then they either supply proof, or they stop their useless caviling and find a truly effective way at making changes in the world, one which will make an actual difference in people's lives.

The rest are uncomfortable with female sexuality as expressed freely and safely in a niche community. They want suppress and control it. They use demeaning language and threats, just like the trolls that tried to roll this thread. Some of them are sexist piggies. Yaoi, especially rape-trope yaoi, would be the ultimate threat to MRA schmucks as women completely dissociate from the male gaze and dominate the sexuality of the males (who are drawn for the female gaze) in their fantasy experiences. We refuse to be controlled. How dare we! LOL.

Thumbs up.

And not just French films. The Italians, Germans, Russians ... even the Iranians, Yemenis, Saudis ... (albeit closet cases, there) ... all of them have their stashes of fantasy material. Why do you think Daesh, El Shabob and other fundamentalist sects are working so hard to wipe out historical documents and heritage sites? Of course, they don't want any historical records left to contradict their particular brand of cultural revisionism. You won't get anyone on these boards saying there isn't such a thing as rape-culture, although most countries and feminist organizations draw a distinction between high art and general rape-culture.

What we are challenging (successfully, so far) is the inclusion of rape-trope in yaoi within that rape-culture context, and the pivotal premise of that argument lies with the reality that yaoi is by women for women, who don't tend to go around raping people. I'm not going to say it never, ever happens, but it is so rare and aberrant, as to not really qualify as evidence, and I doubt that yaoi factors into their aberrations.

Juno mentioned the Sabine Women, a myth or legend from the Roman era. When the mountain passes unfroze after the winter of their abduction, they were offered the chance to reunite with their former spouses and families, but were so much better-treated by the Romans, all but a handful remained in Rome. Legends and myths withstand the progress of time because they speak to the inner shared experiences of large groups of people. The literal person takes the story at face value, is horrified and reacts from that placem with censorship and suppression. The materialist hears it and assumes that it's probably a historical record of the Roman conquest and assimilation of the Etruscan people, a slightly abstracted, slightly symbolic, but still literal. It's transcendence into the realm of art has to do with how men and women alike see it as a reflection, in storybook form, of a subtle inner experience related to their perceptions of reality—one which has nothing to do with whether the physical events actually happened in real life, or whether similar experiences continue to happen in this present day. It's "spiritual", and a symbolic and collective form of communication and expression, not related to whether the Sabine women and what purportedly happened to them ever really were. This is to draw the distinction that is art, because freedom of artistic expression is a human right.

LOL! That last line! EPIC!

And, no. I don't mean serious commenters by any of the trolls of this topic. Sorry, it's my bad for not making it clear. I was talking about other people commenting on this mangas. I really like this manga & come back to it from time to time to re-read it. After reading it, I like going through old topics. Couldn't help noticing similar comments like the thread master of this one(Joo). Even though they are smaller in number compared to other fan comments on this manga, it always ALWAYS makes me wonder the same thing as I mentioned before. Why take a work of fiction so seriously and labeling them as "unhealthy" or "stupid". I assumed they are serious commenters or at least not trolls as they did not behave like an immature 9 year old brat spewing illogical nonsense all over a thread (like the "XXX").

I usually try to avoid these types of arguments as much as possible as I like to keep my internet time peaceful & less irritating. But I really appreciate it when someone stands up to them with a meaningful sensible conversation, as I can't do it.

Yeah, I don't consider Joo a serious commenter because she always flounces when it comes down to defending her attacks on readers. She can't defend them, so she acts like a 13-year-old. Bog standard troll.

XXX, whoever that person really is on or off this site, was trying to trip me up. In a discussion forum on the internet, flinging around random links does not qualify as proof of identity. Nor does simply stating what one is or does, as in "I am an activist who works in ...". (Sorry, Juno, have to disagree with you there.) It is the overall pattern of reasoning and support and actions which add up over time: I stand against the suppression of female sexuality; I stand against suppression of free speech or artistic expression; I stand for sexual liberation as befits consenting human adults; I stand for that the rape trope in yaoi is purely symbolic, even when the story is going for verisimilitude and it's meant as a cautionary tale for adults, and that it is not meant to advocate for real life sexual assault or harassment, EVER! I stand for that yaoi readers are not rapists and do not support rape culture. In a situation like communication on this site, where the only evidence I can provide to support my claims of activism is through the use of words, I let the consistency and quality of my words over time speak for itself.

*ahem* Speak for "themselves". Typos aside.

Well. This more or less became the equivalent to a YouTube comment section.

Hey, guru. Thanks for your comment earlier. Curious about this one. Not familiar with YouTube comment sections.

Again Bravo. You are amazing. This as well as you other comments astound me (this goes to the others as well.) Maybe this has already been said, but let me just add... If these stories were so offensive they would not be as popular as they are and sales and posts would slowly diminish. That does not seem to be the case, it actually seems like there are more mangas with this trope. Again let me reiterate, If you don't like the story, don't read it. If you didn't know what kind of story it was, STOP reading it. It doesn't take rocket surgery to figure that out. Even my 4 yr old and 9 yr old sons know (regarding t.v) "hey I don't like this show. I'm gonna stop watching it" Or when My husband and I watch a scary movie, they play somewhere else or do something else.. tbc

Ah, well, on YouTube there are these things in comment sections called "flame wars" where the original commenter posts something which rouses other users and thus starts a huge argument (and yes, there are trolls there). It's the same with Facebook.

To be honest, it's not a bad thing that "violence and perversion in Manga" is being discussed here... it's just that this is the first time on this site that so many fangirls (who are usually peaceful, hehe) are riled up. Then again, there's a huge problem with ghost members and "puppet accounts" who sometimes troll and whatnot; this is actually the third argument chain I've seen (though none this big).

Again agreeing with you and reiterating these arguments are not saying everybody has to like this trope and not saying that person can't have an opinion and comment on it. Just don't belittle the people who don't agree with those opinions and comments. Hmmmm... I think that is all. (●'◡'●)ﾉ

Right. What kind of person keeps kicking themselves in the arse and complaining, "Ow, that hurts!"? They aren't going to find anything but misery on this site. That, and—as anon put it—"raging butthurt."

Okay, got it. I mostly like Classical music, so that probably gets rid of most of the flame war trolls on youtube right there (although some of them get a mite sniffy over the subject of vibrato. So there's that ...)

I like seeing fangirls say their piece. At some point or another, this sort of discussion may wind up in a legal or political challenge somewhere, and the more people understand the dynamics which underscore these subjects—what constitutes art, for example, and where does perversion cross the line—the more they can advocate for liberty and freedom of expression in a larger context. They learn that it doesn't hurt to speak up, but it hurts plenty when someone tries to suppress speech.

Thank you for what you said here for me. It's been 12 yrs now and thinking about what happened back then still shakes me up. But, I can read some stories like this and some stories I can't. And I do have to agree with what you said in an earlier comment that it can be therapeutic. For years when I saw a movie and read a book with a rape scene I cried. The more I talked about it, with friends, with my husband, sometimes (rarely) with someone I just met the easier it was for me to come to terms with it and I have been able to read these kinds of stories.

Amen to that.ヾ(☆▽☆)

I also like serious discussions aside from the fangirling, especially for darker themed and havier plotted manga (like "Mob for Jack" or "Not Equal"). The problem is that when it comes to discussions, it's less about critical analysis and understanding but more of like what is constituted as "right" and "wrong" by real world standards. That totally disregards the fact that this is literature and literature does serve as an escapist medium, a place where "right" and "wrong" can be duly expressed in a different way or completely violated. When getting into discussions with people who are too shallow to this concept, it feels like a pissing contest between what they believe and what you believe and the facts and "titles" to validate their opinions. They're practically force feeding one another their perspectives.

That's what this thread feels like, honestly (though many points you made were pretty legit).

Wow. I have some typos...

Bwahahahaha!!!I just have to say this also. When I see a negative comment it just makes me curious and then I end up reading the manga or putting it in my list to read. Just to see if it was actually that bad so take that all you negative nellies out there! Bwahahahaha!!! Suckas! (≧∀≦)

LOL, I agree about literature being a venue where anything can be portrayed, even the worst depravities, and frequently is. (Not Equal is one of my favourite manga, Mob for Jack is one I had to drop because it hurt too much and I couldn't detach enough emotionally to get through it.) I LOL because, years ... no, make that decades ago, when I took a few Lit courses in this and that, I would've never dreamed I'd ever apply critical reading standards to porn, or get into flame wars on freedom of expression over porn. But that's where the most basic lines are drawn, isn't it? Where expression and creativity converge over our very self-natures, a place we cannot control through effort of will and discipline because it is the essence of who we are, our sexual fantasies, which don't necessarily mean the same things in our imaginations as they do in real life.

But manga isn't merely literature. It is also art. Sometimes it's like admiring Bernini. Other times ... more often, to me, Egon Schiele, a big, fat, wet, slobbery raspberry blown at "normal" whatever that is. But nobody (since Hitler) says that these artists have no legitimacy. Nobody EVER said it about Bernini, but Egon Schiele became an artistic anti-hero icon because an oppressive government tried to wipe him out. His work resonated with too many people, but the ones who disliked what it said, perhaps felt it too keenly as personal criticism, did try to destroy it. This isn't belief, but a matter of historical record.

Right now, people are trying to agitate against porny manga and shame the Japanese government into censoring it. It hasn't worked, but they keep trying. In those cases, it's important to know how to express what one feels and thinks, to develop that skill and use it to advocate and defend. I think that's why the constant reiteration of certain points sometimes feels like forcefeeding, but it's people bouncing those ideas off each other, reinforcing whether they stand up, and sparking new ones.

Agree!

No problem. The reason I wrote all that is because many other people who went through such experiences told me how they felt. There was a time when I did not believe that a survivor might actually read and enjoy rape-trope romance or yaoi fic, especially the rape=romance schtick. It was unfathomable to me. How could someone who had been so violated and hurt, who must be so angry about their experience and PTSD-ready to lash out at anyone who triggered similar feelings, appreciate and enjoy stories that reignited trauma in their lives? It made no sense.

Boy, was I schooled!

... And liberated. Totally grateful to the people who set me straight on that matter, because actual experience overrides any belief or idea, any made up construct, about experience. Once I got off that high horse, I found that I had the permission to like any manga that resonated with me, just because. I never knew how inhibited I had been before.

The only other time I was PWNed like that was over the issue of genetic predisposition toward homosexuality. I've always supported gay rights, but I never appreciated how much it mattered to me than when I was going on about how gay people can't help being gay because of their physiology and a lesbian told me to shut up. She had the same right to her sexual expression as any other consenting adult, not because of some inevitable genetic bias, but simply because. She had the right to love whomever she wanted. Of course she was right ... and what a gift, to really get that the heart rules itself.

I'm not saying that every person who has been through the same experience as you will find manga therapeutic and a form of catharsis. I don't expect that. I expect them to respect those that do.

ヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~

I get that you think I flounced when I realized it was pointless to continue when the conversation wasn't going anywhere except, "But we like it so neener." I chose to disconnect because my message was falling into a deep, dark hole.

However, I fully challenge your mischaracterization that I am some kind of serial troll, just to try to make your point and discredit me."She always flounces"? Where the hell does that come from? Show me that comment history, if you please.

Let it go, let it go
It's not serious anymore
Let it go, let it go
Just turn you back and slam the door
No one cares about this thread
Get on with your life
The manga meant no real harm anyway

Thank you for sharing.

Lol.

So damn right. Most people here are mentally ill...

Then.... why are you here? That's like calling the kettle black, so come jump in the fire, Pot.... Lol!

Because the person who wrote it thinks that way.But either your reading comprehension sucks or you just felt attacked or identified with the words he used if your replying like that lol.
He didn't even read the story, just the comments and he truly hates the way ppl defend rape here, so he used my account to say something, too bad if you don't like it. And don't bother answering back, he won't be using it again. I'm just here to avoid the annoying notifications, bye.

I must say I say once you insult someone in a argument you down grade yourself especially when they give up.
And why do I have a strong feeling your the same person just using different accounts....

Okay? You don't need to know, but there's a reason you may think that.
We're two guys using the same account. And there's another one using the account you probably think it's me lol.. We're friends and roomies. Besides, we think ridiculously alike. Good luck and check out our page. We're soon having another poll so ppl vote for their faves, bye

LOL, three-headed troll with multiple personality disorder calls people on this site "mentally ill", then invites us over to infect our computers with a big wormy STD. Probably sings "Don't Stop Believing" while tossing rohipnol into girls' drinks at the frat parties.

lol that was freaking hilarious. This person with multiple disorder would love to give you a glass of bleach, since we're all crazy here, you would love to. Bitch I'm gone. see you at the party

"I'm leaving. I'm leaving. Watch me. I'm not coming back. Do you see how I'm not coming back? Hey, watch me leave. I'm not coming back. I'm really gonna leave, as soon as you all pay attention to me, you hear? Then I'm leaving. And you won't see me again. Until the next time you pay no attention. And then I'm coming back to leave again."

Oh just shut up already. I commented something like ages ago and now I regret it. Now I can't mute this crap and it's getting really annoying guys. Seriously, y'all just go read something or suck a dick and stop spreading your crap not fun anymore.

"I'm back to let you know I'm still leaving. Just watch me. I'm really, really, really hate it here and the ass-kicking I got and pretend not to like, so I'm just letting you know that I hate it so much I'm never darkening this door again. Bye-bye. Can't you see I'm leaving?"

haha you gave me jokes!!!

Do they really need one though?
Am pretty sure a guy can't become pregnant.

STDs and STIs.
Men aren't immune to this, yet the odds of either of them cheating are slim, but Chiaki did get around with the ladies before they met. Idk.... Better to be safe than sorry.

Oh, I guess you right.