connoisseur

I do believe that Zig actually decided to make it this controversial as she wrote Grayson's story first before any other and then gave stories to other characters. Grayson was her first character for this universe. The problem was that she released Grayson's story in the last. If readers were to expose to Grayson's character first the impact of chase story would be a bit different.

Also the reason of Chase not forgiving Grayson didn't sit right with me. Chase already knew about Grayson's condition and how he only copy words(even before those incidents). When Grayson was apologising to him, he didn't forgive him because it was impossible for him forget wht he did to him. Chase clearly said to Grayson that you are still copying words that Dane taught you so there's no way that ur apology is sincere. That was the only reason he didn't forgive him.

Copying words is the only method Grayson knows to have conversations

As the other comment said, Grayson was the first written character. Every story was written with the dyanmics of Grayson, then Ashley & Koi, in mind.

However, I disgree entirely with the idea of a Chase vs. Grayson, and any sort of obligations for forgiveness or wrongdoing. I think ZIG did this intentionally, to show how things aren’t black and white, things don’t just become healed because you’ve repented. While Grayson is a much, much better person at the end of the novel, and he truly regrets his actions, it doesn’t negate the trauma he inflicted. It is just how many dislike Ashley for his poor parenting, even though the basis of it was from his truly shitty father, Dominic. The Miller family was going to be quite compromised from the start, it’s starting roots of Dominic and Juliet were horrid. Generational trauma can’t be rooted out that easily, even if Ashley was a little different traces remain.

Anyhow, if ZIG cared to make it be forgivable, she would have made Chase forgive him. But that is clearly not what she was going for, otherwise she could literally not even write the scene at all. I think there would be more outrage had she done so. That scene had a purpose, to show that it is unforgivable, but they still may possibly heal from those times.

I don’t think Chase is obligated to forgive Grayson, nor is Grayson the worst character in the world because of what he has done. People focus on the wrong things, it’s best to focus in the present. Both are happy with their partners, and their wounds individually are healing. There is a possibility in the upcoming DMIYC side stories they make up. As ZIG IYC series fans, instead of focusing on Chase vs Grayson, why can’t we focus on character development, Chase before he met Josh versus now, and Grayson before he met Dane versus now?

I think the fact these novels take place in far different times (Few years gap) there is severe mischaracterization among the fandom as well (not talking about you btw, just in general, that leads to a lot of debates)

I know Grayson and Dane were among the first that she created, and Grayson's novel was released later, but doesn't it mean that she could make changes in the main plot as well without the public knowing since it wasn't published? The version we know was after Chase's plot was published, therefore what I said still remains.

I agree with you. Not everything needs to be forgiven and humans, even fictional, don't have to be perfect. But making your brother think he fucked a dog is something that only the worst characters in the world would do... that's what I am saying. I think Zig went too far.

Oh I totally agree

Forgiving fully aware grown men who intentionally assault, shoot, cripple, and traumatize people? Extremely understandable.

But forgiving a psychologically abnormal character who was literally incapable of processing emotions and consequences normally since childhood? Absolutely impossible. Society must draw the line somewhere.

I understand he lacked emotional comprehension, but honestly he should’ve simply processed emotions correctly.

I understand he learned social behavior through mimicry because his brain developed abnormally, but he still should’ve naturally understood the psychological impact of his actions like a perfectly healthy person would.

I understand he was mentally abnormal from birth due to severe pheromone damage, but at the end of the day he should’ve just decided to be neurotypical I guess

And yes, Chase — who knew about his brother’s condition, therapies, emotional impairment, and abnormal development long before the major incidents — absolutely had zero responsibility toward understanding him even slightly. Only Grayson owed emotional accountability apparently.

Also, readers who sympathize with BOTH Chase and Grayson are clearly inhuman monsters. Real morality means emotionally attaching yourself to one character and refusing to acknowledge anyone else’s suffering

And who cares if Grayson literally became a lab rat for Chase’s survival? Anyone would obviously volunteer themselves for dangerous experimentation after being abused and isolated their entire childhood. Bare minimum sibling behavior honestly.

At this point I genuinely think this fandom discourse is exactly the kind of morally chaotic psychological debate ZIG always wanted people to have

Bro you are talking to walls uk. We owe nothing to anybody for sympathising with both the characters. Just enjoy the story.

Most of the readers who have read all the stories are understanding every POV without holding anyone responsible beside Dominic.

Bro tf morality are you talking about? I didn't write all this shit. I am simply stating that there were thousands of OTHER SOLUTIONS ZIG, the fucking author, could have thought of. I don't give a shit about assault, shoot and whatever, you do not make your brother think he raped a dog, period. It's not remotely a thought process a person would have. Even for a fiction it's not a thought someone would have unless they were complete schizophrenic, or had similar conditions that disconeted them from reality.

There is not even the point, you brought a discussion that didn't exist. Nobody is judging anyone for liking both characters. The point of discussion was that zig exaggerated and some things are beyond repair and that's fucking fine because it's a fiction, my god. You getting so worked up over a fictional character chill

"Even for a fiction it's not a thought someone would have unless they were complete schizophrenic, or had similar conditions that disconeted them from reality."

You said it, Grayson has the condition so author used that solution to portray it to the readers how far off his thinking process can go. It shows that mentally ill people would have thought of this kind of horrible act without thinking anything is wrong.
I completely agree on the 'he has no obligation to forgive him', but we are supposed to open our minds that there are these kinds of people who need guidance and understanding, even irl. Not talking about you btw, but there are some (kmyic manhwa readers mostly) who completely shut themselves from the start without knowing fully. And those while in the middle of knowing the story, show that they were still covering their ears. All these while redeeming/ignoring a mostly normal in the head character (Chase) who did things as, if not more, horrible as Grayson. We aren't even forcing them to forgive, but only to show even a little bit of understanding. Understanding doesn't mean acceptance anyway.

Idk how many mentally ill patients you have seen irl so u think that this is the line. But real life has worst cases available. There are hundreds of documentaries of such ppl for that explaining how minds of those ppl work, how they get cured etc. Just because you chose to not see that part of reality doesn't mean it never existed. No one is saying that it's fine cs it's fiction. We are actually saying that such ppl EXIST IN REAL LIFE AS WELL. And tht is literally why psychiatry, criminal psychology, and law exist as separate fields. It's more on the people surrounding them to take care of them.


Some upright readers always say that fiction affects real life which is true. But this is also a fact that fiction exist cause of reality.

I agree it is really far and very very wrong but also there is a plot point to make it make sense, and it’s not just a random extreme ZIG put in there for fun.
Ashley makes it Grayson’s core rule that extreme alphas must release pheromone. He’s conditioned this into him with manipulation and power, because he doesn’t want Grayson going insane.

Now Grayson believe Chase, who doesn’t want to have sex with random people <— note: PEOPLE
so to “help” because he cannot understand human emotion only the logic he has and rules ingrained into him, he tries to get him to do it with a dog to release the pheremones, because in Grayson’s eyes, pheremones HAVE to be released, and if chase doesn’t have a person he loves then just don’t do it with a person.

I think the extremity genuinely has logic to it albeit fucked up logic that under no circumstances is correct. Absolutely not defending Grayson here. But i think its a good way to show how messed up Grayson is, and to emphasize how Dane fixes him and teaches him emotion. Perhaps there’s some other scenario she could use to show how messed up he is from his lack of development, but it does get what I believe ZIG is trying to portray across.

gang is not fr calling me a inhuman monster for understanding both sides I ain’t sympathizing with Grayson saying what he did was just I am just saying he has changed, and Chase by no means needs to accept this change, but we as the omniscient reader can.

tf u mean morality = only seeing one POV
Have you never learned of Nuance? Life is not black and white? To only attach yourself to one view is just asking to be blind to everything but one. You’d enjoy life more if you start to understand conplexity instead of harrowing on some narrow minded bigotry as you claim.

You can stick with that but you don’t get to insult others if you cannot try to comprehend their words or understand their perspectives.

Also, Grayson never volunteered for experiments solely for Chase’s survival. He did so because he was curious. The Miller were terrible siblings. Is that so bad? It reflects humanity. Such a family of psychopaths, which has clearly been defined by ZIG, was never going to be a loving family. And as humans do, we have horrible and broken families too.

The issue is people not understanding the complexity of human life and the many different paths each walks. Nothing is perfect, nothing is the same. To understand that is what allows a reader to gain something from the works they read.

I was just reading Kiss me Liar, and it actually was Steward (the dr.) who used to say it jokingly ig that Alphas can use dogs as well for extracting Pheromones.

i love you you’ve iterated this perfectly

People confusing acceptance with understand is why so much misunderstandings and conflict happens in society.

To understand is to gain insight, to learn from the many aspects of humanity.

To blindly accept, on the other hand, a single “truth” which is not truth, because there is not single truth to anything involving living life, is what allows for such ridiculous conflicts to rise.

Honestly I get how bad Grayson was… But there is logic to it, even as wrong as it is. but all people can comprehend is that you are reasoning for Grayson, thus, you accept all of him, and therefore you are an inhumane psycho. Like seriously?

Based on my understanding on the comment you replied to, they are being sarcastic. All the things they said are the opposite.

Yes to all of that. I honestly think this is main and only reason the dmyic readers wanted to explain when entering arguments here. I, myself, only wants understanding. But, a lot of them don't get it. It's actually a bit saddening? It could've been a pretty solid point of debate if we are all acting mature and openminded here.

I know right… It always just devolves into insulting either the writing, the character, or the commentor themself…

Oh wait you’re right LOL