SJ02's Topics (1096)

Nooo

You said exactly what I’ve been saying and thinking. It’s a BDSM faux pas to bring personal feelings into domming. It’s just something you should never do. Him forgetting to give him a safe action is pissing me off too because how was he meant to do the action with no hands or legs? The only way to do is it to have a clicker or a button in his hand and if he needs to use the safeword, he clicks it 3 times in a row. He knows MC has no real experience and should be teaching him but from beginning to end, there’s been no lessons. It started off fine but ever since they started dating, he’s gotten so manipulative and controlling and straight up abusive (because this is abuse! Emotional and sexual abuse!) and it’s just not worth reading anymore. I hope author learns from their mistakes and actually consults the BDSM community next time they attempt to write a BDSM book because this was on par with 50 shades of grey in how badly BDSM is being portrayed. 50 shades may have taught the actors everything about the props but they never once actually learned proper safety and care. I’m sick of BDSM books being like this.

I completely agree with you, so much. I think you can bring a scenario like that into play IF you decide to do it as a role play, both parties consent, and you explain exactly what will happen. The author is becoming everything they criticized at first, and it’s even more annoying cause you think the story is safe and suddenly it becomes a toxic slop. I can’t count how many times I’ve read BL and all of a sudden middle/end of a story had rape. I rather it being toxic from the start cause then I know to avoid it. What’s the point of giving a safe word if you manipulate your sub into whatever you want to do? And did the author completly forget they even have a safe word? I’m also sick of BDSM and yaoi overall being like this.
Ironically, one of my favorite BDSM portrayals was in BJ Alex that has a super toxic main couple (typical yaoi nonsense), but a very consensual side couple with far more extreme kinks than the main one. It’s funny how they managed to make those extreme ones the only consensual ones.

Honestly, even in 50 shades of grey this was addressed When Grey used his jealousy in a play and Anastasia safe worded. Like…

As someone who is a survivor of SA and BDSM SA, this turnaround is horrific. The fact it was never disclosed to us (the readers) and we have to get bait and switched like this is disgusting. As much as I love yaoi and most of the yaoi community, the authors love for all things cheating and SA is disgraceful. Bj Alex and aporia are some of the best BDSM portrayals I’ve ever seen in BDSM yaoi. I’ve tried so many out and those two are ones I keep going back to. I hope they make one with BJ MD and have it just be a BDSM book because that would be the best of the best!

Yes but they portrayed him as a “dom” and a “sadist” but the sadism he has is NOT BDSM sadism. He was sexually abused and is very twisted inside. He wanted the pain of women (because he was hurt as a kid) and that isn’t a BDSM thing, that’s a trauma thing. They tried to play it all off as if the BDSM community is all just sexually abused loners who are psychopaths waiting to hurt people and the BDSM community was up in arms about it. We spoke out about how damaging that kind of messaging is and how BDSM is nothing like that. They did eventually apologise for misrepresenting the BDSM community but I don’t think many people paid attention to it. That’s what I mean. Not about Christian grey as a character but as a novel and movie as a whole.

First of all, I am so sorry you went through that. I had a friend who also had the same unfortunate experiences. I hope whoever did that to you is rotting in prison and you’re healing.
Second, this is kind of the reason why I hate majority of yaoi and majority of the yaoi community From my experience majority of readers defend SA in yaoi like it’s their lifeline, and majority of yaoi has SA in some way or form. Like, it’s pretty much fetish content for people who fetishize gay men (not ALL and not EVERYONE, but a lot). And I totally agree about BJ MD. Side couple was so much better than the main couple. I like Bj Alex main couple for the angst, but I do not like or ship them together. MLs behavior wasn’t shown as good, but it was quite brushed off (SA parts).

Oh, I didn’t mean that it was a good portrayal of BDSM I think it’s a pretty shit movie series and it always felt off to me, I’m just saying that even a series that bad drew a line with this specific issue that this manhwa that is supposedly safe, cannot

This sums up perfectly what i was thinking since the second season started. At the beginning of S2 it seemed like they never properly talked it out and the weird misunderstandings came either from miscommunication or no desire to WANT to understand the other part... And now with the last few chapters esp. the last two I felt really uneasy. "Talk to me" the ML says, while the ML is gagged and completely tied up. There was no talking through what is going to happen and thats especially terrifying when blindfolded. The MC being scared also highlighted the fact that he has no way to signal his safeword/sign that he wants to stop and the chapter ending in him wanting to continue because he feels like he hasnt been punished enough??? Out of my perspective there was never a reason to go THIS far into the punishment.

(And about your comment with the majority of the yaoi Community defending SA - oh my lord or whatever entity in the sky and hell - i've dropped a Story sometime ago where i just had to air out my disappointment in people not seeing the SA that was clearly happening in that story - there was someone commenting to my post that they totally agree with me but also kinda defending it, because that couple grows and the story ends good and that they like each other so the SA is no big deal, like huuhhh?? Smth smth like SA/dubcon used "as a piece of fantastical fiction" makes it fine)

I totally agree with you and you have no idea how many times whenever I voiced out my disappointment about SA people defended it trying to paint it as consensual or “hot”. I am VERY careful with any mature manhwa I read. GL and straight manhwas have the exact same issues, in BDSM themes or vanilla ones. Some stories I straight up have to ignore minor SA, cause there’s like 1 out of a 100 stories that is fully consensual. “My sunny days” is my haven

Our* Sunny days

I was similarly disappointed with manhwa Kings Maker that also started off as criticizing sexual violence and then started incorporating common BL SA themes (dub-con at best) and when I voiced my disappointment in this, especially taking into consideration how this series started off, people attacked me so hard on how the “uke” can stand up for himself and regardless of countless “stop”, “I can’t” in the middle of “sex” etc., he “wanted it”. And I’m sure I don’t have to explain how harmful the whole “he secretly wanted it even tho he refused loudly” narrative is.

Since we seem to be on the same page here, i'd love to recommend the video essay "Jinx: The Romanticization of violence and how it gets away with it". Its 30 minutes and i felt so seen and heard through that and how the creator perfectly summarizes the stigma and the community handling it with quotes like "its just fiction".

I'd love to read GL but i never dipped into that genre so i don't know if i'd find smth good to read. I also have some reasons to always find myself back at BL. I have read some straight storys too but aside from very few exceptions i just don't like it in general - no matter if bdsm or vanilla. Its either weird proportions or the depiction of intimicy being faaaaaar off of how i experience it. I can name three straight storys i enjoyed, the rest i ever touched was either dropped but i vaguely remember the story/setting or i flat out dropped it and forgot about it - which could turn out to come and haunt me if i ever try to read straight storys again (since i have an excel sheet documenting everything i've read), but i highly doubt that.
And sure, i could read the cutesy, fluffy, no R-rated, romance stuff, but i am an adult and i'd like to read storys about adults, that act like adults. Most of the cute stuff i've read or even own physical copys from are from my time in school as a teenager ... And looking back i can't say for certain that i learned healthy behaviour from Vampire Knight or Kaichou wa Maid-Sama XD

Oof, I never touched Jinx, but I know how abusive it is. It’s honestly sad that the most popular yaoi stories are the most abusive ones.
As for GL and straight manhwas, they have the same exact issues. Both also have a lot of SA or dubcon, it’s just something that’s super common in smut. I think majority of people don’t know how to write good smut. If you haven’t already, you should read “Our Sunny Days”. It’s such comfort and breath of fresh air.
I actually read a lot of not-18 rated manhwas, but I do also like smth mature from time to time. Even though I’m asexual, I actually really enjoy sexual content. I think it’s also cause I like to admire body’s anatomy in drawings.

I totally understand and respect how you feel regarding this series, for sure. It sounds like you have a little experience in the scene, whether personal or through reading/ media, which I appreciate. But I do want to say that 1. There are a LOT of different types of safety signals you can use with bound hands and no ability to speak that don't require a clicker (humming a tune, knocking something over with your foot, fake sneezing twice in a row, or dropping something that you're holding in your hand to name a few). It's very important that people know they have options regarding something as crucial and personal as safewords and safety signals, especially those with physical disabilities who can't use something like a clicker. And 2. that this is nowhere near as bad as 50 Shades of Grey.

There was explicit consent violation, purposeful and malicious boundary crossing, and blatant disregard for the sub multiple times in that story. There hasn't been any known consent violation, ignoring of the safeword or safety signal, disregarding of the submissive's limits, or romanticized toxic obsession outside of their kink dynamic at this point in the story. In fact, the Dom in this series is a survivor of an abusive relationship and has been shown struggling with that internally and externally without weaponizing it or making it his sub's problem. We can all agree that that's very rare to see in BL, regardless of the other facets of the story.

Does this Dom handle everything perfectly? No, he doesn't. But why did you expect him to? I mean, is he a real person or is he a fictional character telling a story and letting readers enjoy a fantasy? And even if he was a real person, he wouldn't do everything perfectly anyway. I've been in the scene 10+ years and I've subbed for professionals who have been playing, teaching, and working in the BDSM field for over 2 decades. We still make mistakes and hurt each other unintentionally. We still forget to negotiate things. We still miscommunicate or accidentally bring non-negotiated feelings into play or push limits or forget boundaries. Because we're people. And when you're in an emotionally, physically, and mentally vulnerable place like you are in kink, things just happen sometimes. Sometimes you don't realize you have a hard red limit or were feeling certain feelings until it's too late. So we work through our stuff and try to forgive ourselves and others in order to do better next time. And even that we don't always do perfectly. Because we're people.

And sometimes people just want horny brain junk food. They just need to know that's what they're consuming so that they can decide how to engage further. I agree that teaching anyone engaging with BDSM content/ kinky media what real, healthy kink looks like is very important. Making that education accessible and a kind place for people to explore with curiosity and free from judgment is necessary if we want the kink scene to be supportive, safe, and consent-forward. Because of that, holding fictional characters being used to tell a compelling story to super high standards that even real life people can't always meet, from the beginning to the end of their narrative, is kind of silly. And it's not going to make new people joining the kink community in the real world feel welcome to learn and be unafraid to ask questions as they navigate BDSM's complexities. It's important to have a distinction between fantasy and reality and to inform people what those lines are so that they can give truly informed consent and know where the learning curves start and end. But we can do that while being mindful that none of this is a perfect science.

If this series isn't your cup of tea anymore, that's absolutely okay. Zero judgement. I get it and I'm not gonna try to convince you to read something you don't enjoy. I just really wanted to jump in and give perspective on some of your critiques that I think lacked knowledge or nuance to give perspective to those who are reading these comments while still learning about kink and BDSM.

That’s true. For how bad the BDSM portrayal was, he did abide by at least some of the sacred rules.

Absolute safe place! That one and the serpent mountain god one is just chefs kiss!

It’s definitely not just the BL community. It’s genuinely just Asian comics unfortunately. Manhwa and manga authors just have a hard on for SA. The amount of times I’ve seen the words “I won’t stop even if you say no now” and I’m just instantly checked out and it do be in straight manhwas. It sucks that we have to literally wade through shit to get to maybe a halfway decent story that at least doesn’t have SA. I’ve heard so many people say “it’s not SA cause he didn’t do xyz” and I’m like “babe… if anyone touches you at all without your permission and it feels sexually charged, that’s sexual assault. If someone makes you a parent without permission, that’s SA. If someone gives you an std that they were aware of and didn’t disclose, that’s SA.” It’s more than just physical violence + sex = SA and I think it’s really sad that people don’t know that because that literally is why SA is so prevalent because people aren’t acknowledging what it actually is. Studies show that over 80% of men (university study) think it’s okay to try over and over to get a sexual partner to say yes and almost 95% of them said they have done and said what they imagine is the “right thing” in order to get sex. Which is coercive and therefore SA. It’s actually disgusting how common it is to see coercion and it be brushed off. It’s not sexy!

Idk that one, can u send it to me?

I totally agree with you, and gosh the whole “I won’t stop even if you ask me to” or “It’s too late to back out now” is an automatic out for me as well. Recently I’ve seen a manhwa where an encounter started as consensual and then ML asked consent
and immediately followed by “I wasn’t asking for your permission” THEN WHAT WAS IT??? Atp, with any yaoi i either ask beforehand if it’s safe or I read all the sex scenes before starting it. Also, the amount of tropes with one person being drunk and the other just going for it??? Or someone sleeping and someone going for it. You’re right, people don’t know what SA is and therefore it’s very normalized. My friend is Korean who moved to Europe and he said it’s pretty common for guys to take black out drunk girls home in Korean, it’s not considered SA. People seriously have no idea what SA is. If it’s not a an enthusiastic yes then it’s not consensual. That’s why I believe people should have safe words even outside of BDSM, and that’s what also irks me. If any of those stories even mentioned there is consent there majority of bullshit they pull would be automatically consensual in a lot of scenarios (where someone isn’t manipulated/unable to move or speak). That’s why I love Our Sunny Days, both people are equally attracted and horny for one another, now that’s sexy! The only time abusive relationship tropes work is when two people are equally toxic. Then there is no clear victim, it’s an interesting dynamic where you don’t have to feel bad for anyone and you know the other person can handle themselves. Dreaming freedom used to be like that until they messed it up with ghosting and SA.

They mentioned there was a safe word*

https://www.mangago.me/read-manga/the_sacred_serpent_s_seduction/

Ohhh no dubcon either? Like no “stop” or “I can’t anymore” during sex either?

As far as I remember, no. It starts off with the snake god asking a human to bear his seed in order to have an heir to the mountain he presides over and in return, he will try to extend the life of the humans guardian. So it’s a surrogacy trope to begin with. The snake god did a lot to make sure it wasn’t painful and that it was somewhat enjoyable for the human. I don’t ever recall a moment where the human said no to something and the snake god protested it. Not even in the latest chapters.

If your worries, I can always reread it? I love it so much so it won’t be a problem for me to reread the story lol

Oh hahaha sure, if you want! That’s a lot of time, but I can’t refuse if you’re suggesting

Nah trust me it’s like one day if that lmaooo I am speeedddd

I’m jealous. I’m a very slow reader

I would be a slow reader if I could. Better enjoyment that way. Unfortunately, my brain thinks faster than I can catch up so it’s better to read faster too :((

The first chapter 13 or so chapters have noncon and dubcon (context: MC was not upholding his end of the deal and the ML had already saved his grandpas life once so he “collected what he was owed” but that’s still no excuse for it) and the use of an aphrodisiac. Honestly, it seems like ML as a god doesn’t really understand much of anything so most things he does seems really brutal and cruel but to him, he’s probably just following his base instincts :((

They talk it out in ch 14 and MC says he still needs to work and that everyday is too much so twice a week is all he can commit to. ML agrees to that.

I will say, you can basically skip between ch 8-14 since it’s just work, grandpa, sex. But it’s probably best to just skip this story. I started reading this 2 years ago when it just came out (and it’s still ongoing with side stories) so I forgot about the beginning of it. If you wanna read the side stories, they are adorable! It has babies!!

Ah, thanks! Yeah, I’m probably gonna skip this one. Thank you so much for re-reading it and warning me! Much appreciated it

Dubcon only really works for me if both characters do it to each other and both are equally toxic. I think that’s the only dynamic it abusive tendencies work in.

I’m saying it’s dubcon but it’s more “I just came! Wait a minute!” And then squirting. So technically dubcon but also I wouldn’t consider that a “bad” wait. For me, I can forgive it if it’s like that or if it’s with a non human being. I can’t fault a snake for being snakely. I mean, I’m just thankful he didn’t eat him after he gave birth lol

I think I can forgive it in some cases, but def not just cause smth isn’t human tho

I’ve read that chapter you warned me about, I don’t think it’s that bad. Are there any other sus chapters?

Well it’s kinda like the orca story. I can forgive the murder cause he’s not human. I can forgive the possessiveness because he’s not human. So in some cases, I can forgive not understanding human customs (like foreplay). Those kinds of things I can forgive. I’m not saying I forgive SA.

There’s one where ML continues after MC passes out. There’s one where ML puts both his dicks in (in human size not snake god size). Stuff like that? I kinda zipped past the somno stuff so I forgot what chapter that was. Basically everything until he gets pregnant is pushy.

Ah, then it’s definitely not for me. Continuing after someone passes out, I’m sorry but that’s such typical yaoi trope

Yeah. I read it 2 years ago in my “if I read it fast enough, it can’t trigger me” era and it’s been so adorable the past year so I forgot how yaoi this started :((

Yeah, I also used to be more tolerant when I was younger. The kind of fan fictions I’ve read? VILE

I was so convinced I could get through my cptsd by just brute forcing exposure therapy. I have since grown and learnt it doesn’t work that way lol. But alas, as a yaoi reader for over a decade, it’s kinda desensitised me to toxicity in books so it sorta worked? Just not for the triggers.

Yeah, I think this kind of thing works for some people and for others doesn’t. I did see women read those to deal with their own trauma. I truly hope for the best for you, hope you get to heal.

Thanks! You too! Hopefully we can read only pure fluffy yaoi with no triggers from now on! The green forest tag is quite nice for that!

I didn’t know about that tag! Thanks! Also, it doesn’t have to be fluffy for me. I like angst. I also like darker themes as long as they aren’t between the leads and they aren’t fetishized.

Green forest has some darker themes too. I’ve read some mafia green flags on there. There are also tons of lists people make of safe stuff. Majority of all of my faves on my two lists are safe. There’s also a consent tag and stuff like that. You can totally find angsty darker stuff with consent by selectively searching for it but sometimes they do miss dubcon so that slips in.

Ugh, dubcon….

Yep… such is yaoi life :(( imma make lists of no sa no dubcon

I followed u! So I would be grateful

Or at least 10 times
Gosh he is so insufferable

I feel like they downplayed his behavior

He's got neglect play tendencies.

Wouldn't be shocked if getting his shit rocked got him off, too lol

Since it’s not an actual command, I feel like it would send a clearer message. We’ve seen him be into it, cause all of the stuff they did were related to dynamics, punching someone in the face isn’t

Totally!! What he did is a kind of sexual harassment, and yet they just let him go like that

And stalking

Nope

Thanks. I guess I will have to marinate it more :’)

Think of it as a Floor in SSS-Class Revival Hunter.

Never read that