Y'all such cocksuckers its killing me y'all ate everything up just because the mains are conveniently "pretty", it's okay for people to not like something and IT IS incredibly and morally valid when the main theme of the story is fcking RAPE. And also one more thing, RAPE should never be classified as "genre" y'all really like bypassing sht when it comes to sexualization, ts should be abolish like the concept of "loli". Holding people accountable is not "softy". (And if u like it, then thats you but you defo need to recheck ur morals if u defend zhenya for ts) .
"Oh because in the novel he changed blablabla" btch now look at me in the eye and tell me does rape should be counted as a concept of a redemption arc? y'all are not edgy nor different or tough, y'all need therapy.
First of all understand this, disliking a story because it contains rape is completely valid but the mere presence of rape in a story. It doesn't automatically mean the story endorses in it. Fiction often explores terrible acts, murder, abuse, war, manipulation.
All of these is not to glorify them but to examine their consequences, psychology, or themes.
Criticizing the story is fair but you gotta understand there are soooooo many countless books and soooo many countless rape scenes in it AND judging other people's morals solely because they engage with the story is a WEAK ARGUMENT.
First of all understand this, disliking a story because it contains rape is completely valid but the mere presence of rape in a story. It doesn't automatically mean the story endorses in it. Fiction often explo... Rinnie
Babez, I get your point, but let me clarify something because I think you're arguing against something I never actually said.
I never said people have bad morals simply for reading a story. People can consume dark fiction for all sorts of reasons. My issue was never with engaging with the story itself. (depends on which context btw but if some people goon to these scenes fck those people that is sexualization, that is not a kink clearly deranged)
My issue is with people bending over backwards to DEFEND Zhenya's actions, especially the rape scenes, as if they're somehow romantic, justified, or part of a redemption arc. That's where I start questioning people's moral reasoning.
There's a huge difference between saying, "This is a well-written story that contains rape," and saying, "What he did wasn't that bad" or "he did it because he loved him" Those are not the same thing.
And yes, fiction can absolutely explore rape, abuse, murder, war, and other horrific subjects. I never said those themes shouldn't exist in literature. What I'm saying is that portraying something and defending it are two different conversations. A story can include rape without endorsing it. Likewise, readers can enjoy a story without excusing the rapist (!!!!!).
That being said, I do stand by my criticism of stories that repeatedly frame rape as a path to romance, intimacy, or redemption. The fact that there are countless books that do it doesn't make it any less worthy of criticism. "It's common" is not the same as "it's good" or "it should be normalized."
So my criticism isn't that rape exists as a theme. My criticism is directed at the fandom culture that romanticizes it, minimizes it, or treats it as some " swoon-worthy" character development moment because the perpetrator happens to be attractive. And also if you are portraying a fcking sensitive topic, how you write the situation itself matters. (And also the way ts is advertised is horrendous wdym not endorsing it defo they do thats why portrayal matters omg).
I'm kinda pissed I couldn't respond directly on here (maybe my shit was too long who knows), if you're interested in reading my comment its posted above. I loved your talking points, you ate
I'm kinda pissed I couldn't respond directly on here (maybe my shit was too long who knows), if you're interested in reading my comment its posted above. I loved your talking points, you ate marsxxi
Ngl, this is probably one of the better responses I've seen on this topic. I appreciate that you actually provided context and explained the characters' motivations instead of just saying "you don't get it" or "it's fiction."
I still don't necessarily agree with all of your takes, especially regarding how the story handles certain actions BUT that is fine cause again I haven't read the novel itself cause it pains me to read it thats why I'm here. I don't have much background on Zhenya's character but I think this is a much fairer and more nuanced argument than simply excusing everything Zhenya does.
My personal take is that I find it a bit lazy when a romantic relationship is built on "he did horrible things because of his tragic past." A tragic backstory can explain a character's behavior, but for me it doesn't automatically make the romance compelling or satisfying. (expecially with Zhenya's situation being a rapist, cause its giving me killing stalking vibes prolly why I don't like it as much as the other stories pinning for tragic pasts)
Additionally (shet ang oa), my criticism has never really been "there's no context." It's more that I don't find the context enough to make me root for the relationship. Tho I will say sorry for my og comment cause it looked like I'm cursing everyone out (I'm not, only the cocksuckers) its just pissin me off how its easy for people to gloss over rape in literature especially yaoi's T~T but nonetheless I loved how you worded everything out ^^
"Oh because in the novel he changed blablabla" btch now look at me in the eye and tell me does rape should be counted as a concept of a redemption arc? y'all are not edgy nor different or tough, y'all need ther... Yaoi on Ice
Tsk... At the end of the day, if you don't like it, don't read it
Ngl, this is probably one of the better responses I've seen on this topic. I appreciate that you actually provided context and explained the characters' motivations instead of just saying "you don't get it" or ... Yaoi on Ice
Hey girlie, okay, I'm gonna yap because......why not hahahahaha. I should've mentioned I was kinda answering various comments because after I tried answering on this thread, it kinda screwed me over, and I was like omg I can talk about multiple topics since I have to post an actual thread on it. So, like your topic opened multiple talking points for me.
So, for your comment, I was more so talking about how rape is becoming a big thing in Yaoi as something that's become a stable as well as everything regarding rape (the paragraphs 1-6 were about this comment).
The rest was regarding other comments I've seen ever since CA came back - not regarding your comment!! Lots of people read purely because both Zhenya and Taekjoo are handsome and don't actually pay attention to the details of the story. No tea, no shade, but a lot of people who make their comments lack critical thinking, using context clues, the ripple of cause and effect. They make these comments (for example, the ones I discussed in the last two paragraphs) and other ones I just didn't feel like breaking down.
Others also hate read the book, and it's leaving a bad impression on other people because, in all actuality, they don't fully understand what they are reading, hence why I said some people aren't mature enough to read dark fiction, or maybe they just don't like it, and that's okay.
And I agree with what you said, and others should realize this too: the context of why a person is the way they are isn't a justification to treat people the way they do because the people they're hurting aren't deserving of that treatment. Your trauma isn't everyone else's to endure, and it's your responsibility, especially when you become an adult, to get your shit together in some way.
Zhenya was a victim and grew into an abuser of the person he was first interested in. It's sad he became this way, but just because he may have given Taekjoo a warning not to mess with his things doesn't make what he did okay. It would be one thing if Zhenya just beat his ass, wanted something in return....but he brutally raped him and considered that 'payment'. The rape in season one was done just because he wanted to do it, and that's what it boils down to. All this boils down to is that he can do it because he can, and Taekjoo can do nothing about it.
Even now I can admit this as a person who loves the book. The sex scenes up to this current point are sexual coercion; it's like a business deal where it's not rape because Taekjoo knows what he's agreeing to, but it's still not wanted. Taekjoo only does these bets because he wants to see the area/perimeter of the island to find a way to escape. He's not doing it for the pleasure but to get information on the island. Which brings up another thing people complain about that pisses me off (they say Taekjoo makes stupid bets and he likes sleeping with Zhenya because he knows what Zhenya wants, and sex is the only thing Taekjoo can offer), when in fact Taekjoo is trying to play ball.
I fully understand and support people who hate their relationship as well as im understanding and supportive of those who love their relationship, because its a book people are going to do one of three things: love it, hate it, or be in the middle. Me, I'm always in the middle because I'm devil's advocate, aka a morally grey asshole. I love their relationship in the novel, but I'd be understanding if people hated their relationship because they couldn't look past the rape in season one. That's perfectly reasonable and justifiable.
My biggest bone to pick is with the people (not you, because it's giving you're intelligent.....I don't say that to many in this day and age as a 20 year old) are that people read without actually comprehending or they read to hate-read and they give these comment that make no sense if they actually paid attention to the manga alone if you only just read this and not the novel. I personally love this book because of the face cards ofc but the metaphor of the biggest theme of the story - Koschei's heart and how it connects to the weapon Anastasia. Sadly, most people thought it was completely pointless and boring in the story and didn't understand. Meanwhile, I was heartbroken because of the sheer unappreciation.... it pains me still to this day two years later.
Ngl, this is probably one of the better responses I've seen on this topic. I appreciate that you actually provided context and explained the characters' motivations instead of just saying "you don't get it" or ... Yaoi on Ice
I also forgot to add....and yes I'm yapping some more because I'm again playing the devil's advocate, and I think this matters and why not listen to your favorite YOUNG HO who acts like a fucking glossary. Zhenya is a sociopath, and he doesn't see anything wrong with his behavior. He probably seriously thinks this is fair because of how he's been cast away by his family, among other things. And how people only interact with him when they need him. He's by no means ignorant of how his actions aren't normal. But to him, they are fair. I'm not excusing this by any means, but I would like to say Zhenya is a pretty accurate depiction of someone who's a sociopath.
Hey girlie, okay, I'm gonna yap because......why not hahahahaha. I should've mentioned I was kinda answering various comments because after I tried answering on this thread, it kinda screwed me over, and I was ... marsxxi
Ohh sht so this only the early part in the book damn so we on the hardest arc ever . I get it uk I read like a lot of dark fiction before and I signed up to ts actually I dropped this b4 and picked it up again cause like I loved the character design so bad so yeah I was hoping it's gonna get better and sht cause its been like forever nothing changed. AND like taekjoo seems nerfed so badly this season, it's killing me and the "rape" (whether its sexual coercion or rape it's not changin sht cause of the lack of consent) (It's not that he knows what's he's signing up to, its just whatever it is, he did not want that to happen) scenes every ep is just unswallowable at this point like it took too long to progress in my opinion so yeah I've said this before I'm reacting based on what I'm seeing rn so I don't get it why I'm getting flamed for a live reaction of what's happening for the latest chaps, it is bad, its just how it is, I don't like how normalized it is to bypass bullsht like this.
Whether I like it as a whole completed book thats for another conversation. I just thought that the progression and the build up of the story is like not good in the sense where, it gets hard to get tuned into something when you dragged it out?? (eg. like jinx) ion know like roses and champagne was good and also warehouse (dark fictions) examples of good progression. (But thats just me). Tho, I'm still gonna read ts nonetheless (LOL)
Anyways, I love doing actual discussions with you ^^
You know being ignorant and complacent is not a flex as u thought its gonna be. Like what's the point of having conversation and feedback if you just gonna agree to every bullshit you see?
You should prolly work on that mindset you have there.
Ohh sht so this only the early part in the book damn so we on the hardest arc ever . I get it uk I read like a lot of dark fiction before and I signed up to ts actually I dropped this b4 and picked it up again ... Sou
Ohh sht so this only the early part in the book damn so we on the hardest arc ever . I get it uk I read like a lot of dark fiction before and I signed up to ts actually I dropped this b4 and picked it up again ... Sou
I'd say in the sense of the novel, we're about halfway (a little over halfway) in the story. I will say I think the reason it may seem dragged out is that there have been hiatuses that are 4 months' worth of possible work we could've got. (BTW this is not me being like the author shouldn't be taking breaks - especially for their health - I'm just stating that if it hadn't been 4 months' worth of breaks, we would've been close to 70% - 75% through the novel.) I can understand why you feel the Island Arc is being drawn out lol. I'd say the Island Arc in the manga is a bit dull (in fairness, I think as I said at one point, I think the artist is trying to finish the story quickly because of their disc issues, which I understand, so they can finally rest).
I think a lot of people enjoy it because they've read it all and see that Zhenya is a complete yearner and that both Taekjoo and Zhenya are red flags that match each other's freaks. I don't think you deserved to get flamed for your opinion, especially if you're going based on what you have thus far. I think that maybe the way you started your comment (the cocksuckers thing) may have led people to think that you were hate reading it or you were trying to say those who like the story are the problem. I personally don't get offended or take the calling of names seriously since I use it as an extension of speech myself. I think looking past that, I could see what you were saying. Maybe it was just the delivery for people. *shrugs*
OMG I'd love to talk to you about Roses and Champagne LMAOOOOO....now that......my anaysis would be everything.
I'd say in the sense of the novel, we're about halfway (a little over halfway) in the story. I will say I think the reason it may seem dragged out is that there have been hiatuses that are 4 months' worth of po... marsxxi
OhHHHHH well I didn't know that lol, now I know (AHA). Love me some roses and champagne, had mixed feelings about it during early season but they manage to actually deliver it well (๑•ㅂ•)و✧
OH btw out of the topic how do y'all fix your reading shts like mine still marked already read for everything
OhHHHHH well I didn't know that lol, now I know (AHA). Love me some roses and champagne, had mixed feelings about it during early season but they manage to actually deliver it well (๑•ㅂ•)و✧OH btw out... Sou
Y'all such cocksuckers its killing me y'all ate everything up just because the mains are conveniently "pretty", it's okay for people to not like something and IT IS incredibly and morally valid when the main theme of the story is fcking RAPE. And also one more thing, RAPE should never be classified as "genre" y'all really like bypassing sht when it comes to sexualization, ts should be abolish like the concept of "loli". Holding people accountable is not "softy". (And if u like it, then thats you but you defo need to recheck ur morals if u defend zhenya for ts) .
"Oh because in the novel he changed blablabla" btch now look at me in the eye and tell me does rape should be counted as a concept of a redemption arc? y'all are not edgy nor different or tough, y'all need therapy.
First of all understand this, disliking a story because it contains rape is completely valid but the mere presence of rape in a story. It doesn't automatically mean the story endorses in it. Fiction often explores terrible acts, murder, abuse, war, manipulation.
All of these is not to glorify them but to examine their consequences, psychology, or themes.
Criticizing the story is fair but you gotta understand there are soooooo many countless books and soooo many countless rape scenes in it AND judging other people's morals solely because they engage with the story is a WEAK ARGUMENT.
Babez, I get your point, but let me clarify something because I think you're arguing against something I never actually said.
I never said people have bad morals simply for reading a story. People can consume dark fiction for all sorts of reasons. My issue was never with engaging with the story itself. (depends on which context btw but if some people goon to these scenes fck those people that is sexualization, that is not a kink clearly deranged)
My issue is with people bending over backwards to DEFEND Zhenya's actions, especially the rape scenes, as if they're somehow romantic, justified, or part of a redemption arc. That's where I start questioning people's moral reasoning.
There's a huge difference between saying, "This is a well-written story that contains rape," and saying, "What he did wasn't that bad" or "he did it because he loved him" Those are not the same thing.
And yes, fiction can absolutely explore rape, abuse, murder, war, and other horrific subjects. I never said those themes shouldn't exist in literature. What I'm saying is that portraying something and defending it are two different conversations. A story can include rape without endorsing it. Likewise, readers can enjoy a story without excusing the rapist (!!!!!).
That being said, I do stand by my criticism of stories that repeatedly frame rape as a path to romance, intimacy, or redemption. The fact that there are countless books that do it doesn't make it any less worthy of criticism. "It's common" is not the same as "it's good" or "it should be normalized."
So my criticism isn't that rape exists as a theme. My criticism is directed at the fandom culture that romanticizes it, minimizes it, or treats it as some " swoon-worthy" character development moment because the perpetrator happens to be attractive. And also if you are portraying a fcking sensitive topic, how you write the situation itself matters. (And also the way ts is advertised is horrendous wdym not endorsing it defo they do thats why portrayal matters omg).
That's the point I was making.
I'm kinda pissed I couldn't respond directly on here (maybe my shit was too long who knows), if you're interested in reading my comment its posted above. I loved your talking points, you ate
Ngl, this is probably one of the better responses I've seen on this topic. I appreciate that you actually provided context and explained the characters' motivations instead of just saying "you don't get it" or "it's fiction."
I still don't necessarily agree with all of your takes, especially regarding how the story handles certain actions BUT that is fine cause again I haven't read the novel itself cause it pains me to read it thats why I'm here. I don't have much background on Zhenya's character but I think this is a much fairer and more nuanced argument than simply excusing everything Zhenya does.
My personal take is that I find it a bit lazy when a romantic relationship is built on "he did horrible things because of his tragic past." A tragic backstory can explain a character's behavior, but for me it doesn't automatically make the romance compelling or satisfying. (expecially with Zhenya's situation being a rapist, cause its giving me killing stalking vibes prolly why I don't like it as much as the other stories pinning for tragic pasts)
Additionally (shet ang oa), my criticism has never really been "there's no context." It's more that I don't find the context enough to make me root for the relationship. Tho I will say sorry for my og comment cause it looked like I'm cursing everyone out (I'm not, only the cocksuckers) its just pissin me off how its easy for people to gloss over rape in literature especially yaoi's T~T but nonetheless I loved how you worded everything out ^^
Tsk... At the end of the day, if you don't like it, don't read it
Hey girlie, okay, I'm gonna yap because......why not hahahahaha. I should've mentioned I was kinda answering various comments because after I tried answering on this thread, it kinda screwed me over, and I was like omg I can talk about multiple topics since I have to post an actual thread on it. So, like your topic opened multiple talking points for me.
So, for your comment, I was more so talking about how rape is becoming a big thing in Yaoi as something that's become a stable as well as everything regarding rape (the paragraphs 1-6 were about this comment).
The rest was regarding other comments I've seen ever since CA came back - not regarding your comment!! Lots of people read purely because both Zhenya and Taekjoo are handsome and don't actually pay attention to the details of the story. No tea, no shade, but a lot of people who make their comments lack critical thinking, using context clues, the ripple of cause and effect. They make these comments (for example, the ones I discussed in the last two paragraphs) and other ones I just didn't feel like breaking down.
Others also hate read the book, and it's leaving a bad impression on other people because, in all actuality, they don't fully understand what they are reading, hence why I said some people aren't mature enough to read dark fiction, or maybe they just don't like it, and that's okay.
And I agree with what you said, and others should realize this too: the context of why a person is the way they are isn't a justification to treat people the way they do because the people they're hurting aren't deserving of that treatment. Your trauma isn't everyone else's to endure, and it's your responsibility, especially when you become an adult, to get your shit together in some way.
Zhenya was a victim and grew into an abuser of the person he was first interested in. It's sad he became this way, but just because he may have given Taekjoo a warning not to mess with his things doesn't make what he did okay. It would be one thing if Zhenya just beat his ass, wanted something in return....but he brutally raped him and considered that 'payment'. The rape in season one was done just because he wanted to do it, and that's what it boils down to. All this boils down to is that he can do it because he can, and Taekjoo can do nothing about it.
Even now I can admit this as a person who loves the book. The sex scenes up to this current point are sexual coercion; it's like a business deal where it's not rape because Taekjoo knows what he's agreeing to, but it's still not wanted. Taekjoo only does these bets because he wants to see the area/perimeter of the island to find a way to escape. He's not doing it for the pleasure but to get information on the island. Which brings up another thing people complain about that pisses me off (they say Taekjoo makes stupid bets and he likes sleeping with Zhenya because he knows what Zhenya wants, and sex is the only thing Taekjoo can offer), when in fact Taekjoo is trying to play ball.
I fully understand and support people who hate their relationship as well as im understanding and supportive of those who love their relationship, because its a book people are going to do one of three things: love it, hate it, or be in the middle. Me, I'm always in the middle because I'm devil's advocate, aka a morally grey asshole. I love their relationship in the novel, but I'd be understanding if people hated their relationship because they couldn't look past the rape in season one. That's perfectly reasonable and justifiable.
My biggest bone to pick is with the people (not you, because it's giving you're intelligent.....I don't say that to many in this day and age as a 20 year old) are that people read without actually comprehending or they read to hate-read and they give these comment that make no sense if they actually paid attention to the manga alone if you only just read this and not the novel. I personally love this book because of the face cards ofc but the metaphor of the biggest theme of the story - Koschei's heart and how it connects to the weapon Anastasia. Sadly, most people thought it was completely pointless and boring in the story and didn't understand. Meanwhile, I was heartbroken because of the sheer unappreciation.... it pains me still to this day two years later.
I also forgot to add....and yes I'm yapping some more because I'm again playing the devil's advocate, and I think this matters and why not listen to your favorite YOUNG HO who acts like a fucking glossary. Zhenya is a sociopath, and he doesn't see anything wrong with his behavior. He probably seriously thinks this is fair because of how he's been cast away by his family, among other things. And how people only interact with him when they need him. He's by no means ignorant of how his actions aren't normal. But to him, they are fair. I'm not excusing this by any means, but I would like to say Zhenya is a pretty accurate depiction of someone who's a sociopath.
Ohh sht so this only the early part in the book damn so we on the hardest arc ever . I get it uk I read like a lot of dark fiction before and I signed up to ts actually I dropped this b4 and picked it up again cause like I loved the character design so bad so yeah I was hoping it's gonna get better and sht cause its been like forever nothing changed. AND like taekjoo seems nerfed so badly this season, it's killing me and the "rape" (whether its sexual coercion or rape it's not changin sht cause of the lack of consent) (It's not that he knows what's he's signing up to, its just whatever it is, he did not want that to happen) scenes every ep is just unswallowable at this point like it took too long to progress in my opinion so yeah I've said this before I'm reacting based on what I'm seeing rn so I don't get it why I'm getting flamed for a live reaction of what's happening for the latest chaps, it is bad, its just how it is, I don't like how normalized it is to bypass bullsht like this.
Whether I like it as a whole completed book thats for another conversation. I just thought that the progression and the build up of the story is like not good in the sense where, it gets hard to get tuned into something when you dragged it out?? (eg. like jinx) ion know like roses and champagne was good and also warehouse (dark fictions) examples of good progression. (But thats just me). Tho, I'm still gonna read ts nonetheless (LOL)
Anyways, I love doing actual discussions with you ^^
You know being ignorant and complacent is not a flex as u thought its gonna be. Like what's the point of having conversation and feedback if you just gonna agree to every bullshit you see?
You should prolly work on that mindset you have there.
oh sht i replied using my other acc mb LOL
I'd say in the sense of the novel, we're about halfway (a little over halfway) in the story. I will say I think the reason it may seem dragged out is that there have been hiatuses that are 4 months' worth of possible work we could've got. (BTW this is not me being like the author shouldn't be taking breaks - especially for their health - I'm just stating that if it hadn't been 4 months' worth of breaks, we would've been close to 70% - 75% through the novel.) I can understand why you feel the Island Arc is being drawn out lol. I'd say the Island Arc in the manga is a bit dull (in fairness, I think as I said at one point, I think the artist is trying to finish the story quickly because of their disc issues, which I understand, so they can finally rest).
I think a lot of people enjoy it because they've read it all and see that Zhenya is a complete yearner and that both Taekjoo and Zhenya are red flags that match each other's freaks. I don't think you deserved to get flamed for your opinion, especially if you're going based on what you have thus far. I think that maybe the way you started your comment (the cocksuckers thing) may have led people to think that you were hate reading it or you were trying to say those who like the story are the problem. I personally don't get offended or take the calling of names seriously since I use it as an extension of speech myself. I think looking past that, I could see what you were saying. Maybe it was just the delivery for people. *shrugs*
OMG I'd love to talk to you about Roses and Champagne LMAOOOOO....now that......my anaysis would be everything.
OhHHHHH well I didn't know that lol, now I know (AHA). Love me some roses and champagne, had mixed feelings about it during early season but they manage to actually deliver it well (๑•ㅂ•)و✧
OH btw out of the topic how do y'all fix your reading shts like mine still marked already read for everything
ill dm you