Flaws in BL I notice a lot
One thing that always annoys me in BL manhwa is when they randomly add a woman into a love triangle or throw in a threesome because 99% of the time it feels completely unnecessary.
And before anyone twists my words, I'm not saying characters can't experiment with their sexuality, and I don't have a problem with threesomes in general. They're just not usually what I read for. My issue is that in a lot of BLs, when a threesome gets introduced whether it's three men or two men and a woman it often feels like it's tied to coercion, SA, manipulation, or it's just being used as a plot device to create drama.
Maybe I'm a little biased because I don’t like love triangles in general, but it always feels like it kills the depth of the relationship. We'll spend dozens of chapters watching these characters slowly build trust, develop feelings, and get closer, and then suddenly it's like, boom, here's a random third person. Instead of adding something meaningful, it often feels like the story is trying to force conflict or shock value.
When it's a woman being added, it can feel even weirder because these storylines always seem to come with this implication of, "Well, if you're gay how do you know you don't like women?" Like what? It ends up feeling lowkey homophobic because it treats being gay as something that still needs to be tested or questioned.
And it also feels misogynistic because of how the women are usually written. They're rarely treated like actual characters with their own depth. Instead, they're introduced as obstacles to the main couple, and it's so obvious the author wants readers to dislike them from the start. They're written in a way where everyone is supposed to see them as annoying, desperate, manipulative, or "getting in the way” and then people act shocked when the fandom starts hating them.
The audience isn't just randomly disliking these female characters, the story practically sets them up to be hated. The woman becomes the villain by default because her entire role is to threaten the relationship between the male leads.
My problem isn't women being in BL. My problem is when female characters are reduced to plot devices whose only purpose is to create drama, test a gay character's sexuality, or be someone the audience is supposed to root against. It feels lazy, and honestly it ends up reinforcing both misogynistic and sometimes homophobic ideas at the same time.
can we get a woman in a BL who exists as an actual person and not just as a relationship obstacle or a one night stand?
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Should probably say that I'm a girl myself or else this doesn't make sense~
I don't know if it will help, but I find that when I write cannon fodder, I make them women. It's just more comfortable to write/describe women than it is to write men, and it's also easier and less taxing on me to come up with situations with them. From clothes to hair style, to even just how they speak, I'd rather thrown a no-face female character than stress over if that is how a guy speaks.
╮(￣▽￣)╭ though, to be fair, if I do choose to write from perspective of a woman, I do put a lot of thought into them.
Also, something else to help~
I know some online fujoshis from japan and we talk about this thing all the time... basically, to quote them, yaoi is an "aesthetic" and the characters are "aliens", so they don't really understand/care about this kind of analysis. They will appreciate the hyper-emotional aestheticism of yaoi differently from the coming of age LGBTQ+ experience focused stories (like Shimanami Tasogare). Sometimes it feels like they don't care, but it's more like the "men" in yaoi are "aliens" unless otherwise stated.
Which is their perspective ╮(￣▽￣)╭ not saying you need to agree with them, but I think everyone should at least once go talk to someone over there that has this sort of opinion, like really talk to them. Not to agree or educate each other, but because it's something worth knowing.
^^ I should also add, there is a very strong culture of "If you want to see it, then you should make it" in Japan, so most of these complaints if you say them too harshly, end up going into the wall of "well if you have so many complaints, go make it yourself?" ╮(￣▽￣)╭ If you've ever read one of Bleach's mangaka's angry rants about their readers... (⊙…⊙ )
Which I honestly agree with. I'm someone who started writing fanfiction specifically because like 99.9% of the fandom writes in one specific way about a relationship, and it was never something I liked. Like, it was some super heavy trope-y stuff and I just didn't like them (〜￣△￣)〜 A lot of it was also kind of dismissive of issues that I though were important ┑(￣Д ￣)┍ like power dynamics (which makes me go dizzy with confusion).
So I wrote my own (๑•ㅂ•)و✧ and I think that honestly, I feel the best way to handle this kind of issue is to make your own content. If you want something out there you gotta put it yourself. It's a pretty consumerist mindset of "this work has xxx issues, I want to see xxx", which I think it common over here (⌒▽⌒) and I end up thinking that way too a lot haha (⊙…⊙ ).
not sure what I'm talking about honestly, not trying to say you are wrong or not to talk about it, I think you're mostly right, and that it'd be nicer to see more fleshed out characters in yaoi (one of the reasons why I like Adelta honestly), it's just I also think in the end, this is something that needs to have pen to paper to resolve.
I actually do agree with parts of what you're saying. I can definitely see why some authors would default to writing female background characters, especially if they're more comfortable writing women than men. That doesn't really bother me, and honestly I think a lot of female side characters in BL are perfectly fine when they're allowed to just exist as people.
I also find the "yaoi characters are aliens" perspective interesting. I don't necessarily agree with it completely, but I do think it's helpful to understand that some readers and creators approach BL very differently than readers who are looking at it through an lgbtq or social commentary lens. Not everyone is engaging with the genre for the same reasons.
I think my issue is just with a very specific pattern that shows up sometimes. When a woman is introduced mainly to create relationship drama, test a gay character's sexuality, or act as an obstacle for the main couple, it can feel frustrating because she's often not given much depth outside of that role. At that point, it feels less like there's a female character in the story and more like there's a plot device.
I dont disagree that different audiences approach BL differently, and I appreciate hearing that perspective. I just think it's still fair to talk about recurring writing tropes and whether they work or don't work for certain readers. (づ￣ ³￣)づ
I actually do agree with the part if you want to see it you should make it, but I also think that authors should be open to criticism from time to time. I think it helps cater to your audience better and can help you improve your writing. I would definitely write my own if I had the skills and recourses lol. Oh and don’t get me wrong, in no way was I trying to say BL should be focused on females or non queer agendas but sometimes I find side characters unnecessary when they don’t really contribute to the plot and thanks for the input, it helped me get another perspective. :)
I hope everyone brings the exact same energy you all have complaint for BL like "we need men in GL stories who actually exist as real people —NOT just there to be love rivals or obstacles."
I’m honestly so fed up. Bet half the people complaining never say a word about how almost zero proper queer rep exists in straight‑focused shoujo/josei. Also funny how I keep hearing fans go “we need more lesbians appearing in BL!”… but when it comes to asking for actual gay men in GL? Crickets completely silent. Double standard much?
Its always BL need more women characters. Like the concept of reading a novel centered around the romantic relationship between 2 men and going on everywhere to ask where the women are
I don't wanna hear this nonsense again cause its only BL you all have a problem for
I don't think we're actually as far apart on this as it might seem, and I hope my comment didn't come across as "BL needs more women" or that BL should revolve around women. That wasn't what I was trying to say.
I also forgot to include part of my original thought, which is that nobody really complains about the lack of queer characters in hetero romance the way people constantly scrutinize BL. So I do understand the frustration with BL often being singled out for criticism.
I agree with your point about GL too. If people are going to talk about representation and side characters, they should keep that same energy across genres instead of acting like it's only an issue in BL.
My issue isn't that there aren't enough women in BL. I read BL because I want to read about the relationship between two men. What bothers me is when a female character is introduced solely as a plot device. A lot of the time she's written to be hated, used as an obstacle, or inserted into a love triangle that doesn't add much to the story.
I also find it frustrating when those storylines seem to imply that a gay character's sexuality still needs to be tested through a woman. That's less about wanting more women in BL and more about disliking a trope that can come across as both misogynistic and homophobic.
So my point wasn't "where are the women?" It was more "if a woman is going to be included, I'd like her to exist as an actual character rather than a tool to create drama." That's all I meant. I hope I didn’t offend you (▰˘◡˘▰)
Well, we do live in a male centered society and historically, a majority of lesbian representation in media still centers men. I'm a lesbian and I've never been into mainstream lesbian porn because it's always fems (who dress for the male gaze), and occasionally the man that steps in for a threesome. I also don't really read Yuri/gl because it's always just fems and gives similar vibes (where's the masc lesbians and the butches? ). I also don't read shoujo/josei because I have no interest in reading about straight relationships. So I pretty much only read BL/Yaoi on here.
Historically, fictional female characters have often lacked depth, which makes sense considering the majority of authors at one point were men. It's not that I want to see well written female characters in every single BL I read, I just find it sad that I haven't found a single one that fits this criteria. It's especially sad considering all of the ways in which men have overshadowed lesbian representation in media over the past few decades.
Blah blah blah blah. I'm tired of people asking for moee women characters in BL. Reading bl and asking for the women are. y'all are annoying. BL isn't and shouldn't have to be about women, pls stop pretending to care about this shit and start reading works about GL and heterosexual instead.
Also I hope you also ask for more men characters in GL and other minorities in straight romance.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to heavily agree with you. The underlying misogyny in BL is wild considering they are mostly written by women. It's kind of sad we don't even see the stereotypical straight girl who's the ride or die bff of the main twink. I know people don't read BL for the female characters, but it would be nice to read one that actually passes the bechdel test (which isn't that hard). Trans representation would also be nice. Where there's gays, there's usually lesbians, bisexuals, and the occasional transgender. It would be nice to see some diversity in that way in a queer community or friends surrounding the mc/ml.
I'm also surprised at the lack of vers/switch couples despite the amount of fans demanding them. I have personally met way more switches than people who only top/bottom in real life.
There's also way too much nonconsensual sex. Sure, I agree it's hot in concept, but it's in nearly every BL I read and the PTSD and aftermath of rape is rarely shown or taken seriously. I have read plenty of erotica that involved consensual sex and bdsm. It just feels lazy to me when I see every single sex scene involving rape, as if the author couldn't be creative enough to imagine consensual sex in a hot or kinky way.
This! At this point, I don’t even think I can call it misogynistic undertones because it’s literally just straight up misogyny. I notice it has been way more predominant in spaces like the manhwa & manga community recently. Instead of the women being used as a plot device, I would love to see platonic bonds and parallels of how women and men can get along without it having to necessarily be romantic or sexual.
I also agree that a lot of queer media lacks diversity, I don’t think I’ve ever read a manhwa with a transgender mc or side character. It would be nice to see that.
I’m not too big on who tops or who bottoms but I tend to notice that a lot of times stories play a power imbalance, in some situations coercion, blackmail, and force can be used and that ultimately leads to dubcon.
I also notice some authors try to present the situation as “desirable”. Just because someone feels pleasure or their body reacts does not mean they’re enjoying it.
I also think people don’t know how to draw the line at fiction and real life and that has unfortunately desensitized people.
In manhwas where they play the Stockholm syndrome trope the aftermath is always so predictable, the mc will fall in love with their kidnapper, and suddenly everything is fine.
If authors are going to write manhwa about the aftermath of sexual violence, abuse, or kidnapping at the very least make it realistic and don’t romanticize it. People’s minds do not break that easily, sa scenes shouldn’t be graphic, they shouldn’t be written off as your average smut scene or something to jerk off to. They should display the integral parts and present it as something serious and not a silly dark romance.
I don’t know why it’s soo hard to write a decent story these days, but it’s gotten super repetitive lately that I can only sigh…