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Haven't read this manga but saw this comment and I just wanna say, well said.
I follow a lot of artists on instagram and lately the topic of like taboo subjects (like r*pe or age gaps/pedophilia) is coming up and the whole "fiction vs reality".

It's like because suddenly people like the way r*pe looks when its potrayed in these webtoons and mangas and it's a bunch of pretty drawings doing it, it's okay...? I'm 100% sure a lot of people of justifying r*pe in these mangas and whatnot is because they think the guy looks cool and maybe they'll be some "character development"!!!! Perfect example is seungho from potn, I see comments around being like omg character development he said he'll be nice now!! Or he's a r*pist but he's so hot!! Like I stopped reading very early on but im sure the plot has not changed from this man r*ping the other day in and day out and people act as if any sort of redemption arc will make it a-okay.

This isn't just appreciating a piece of work that happens to have these taboo subjects like r*pe, it really just is romanticizing it cause it "looks hot" and then acting as if they can completely separate fiction from reality...like that's not how it works?

Going back to artists on instagram, many have come out saying they support one artist who got called out for making r*pe/somnophilia art because it's just art...and some say it's a coping mechanism and yes you can't control your thoughts but it's on you that you decided to make this public and now you're simply dealing with the consequences. And then it turns into many people on twitter talking about how r*pe fantasies are normal and healthy and like...it's a shit show. I really do feel like many people pull these arguments out of their asses because of pretty art. It's sad.

Sorry I kind of diverged into another thing w artists and all but yea I was just happy to see this getting addressed more lately. Hope you have a great day!!!

please don't apologize, i love everything you said. the internet is a cesspool, tbh. go on any big soxial media platform or forums, and you're gonna encounter echo chambers full of olympic level mental gymnasticist. twitter and insta are notorious for shit takes like that.

while i do love painter of the night because it deals with serious topics in a serious manner (and the author herself says that seungho is a piece of shitthat belongs in jail), i cannot, for the life of me, understand what people find so cute or desirable on the content. especially all these psychopaths, of which the king of them all is seungho. the author makes it clear that if nakyum seems to show feelings for seungho, it is due to stockholm syndrome, and that if these two ever have a "happy ending", it wouldn't necessarily be a good ending. kinda like in "nii-chan" by harada.

fact of the matter is that there are really good BL out there who deal with heavy, life-touching topics in a self-aware manner, and then there are creators who shit on all of that and their works are popular because the art is nice, like you said. it's insane, but because the internet offers a pretty anonymous safe-space from people of all walks of life to instantly connect to like-minded people whose existence they will never experience irl, you have a separate, virtual world of people indulging in their escapist hobbies that cloud their common sense, making them lose touch with reality and diffuse socially acceptable and deplorable behavior.

that alone has consequences in reality, too. because they start acting out their online-acquired and/or cultivated beliefs in reality, often resulting in isolation and bullying of such people at best, and revenge-seeking or sexual-relief seeking that leads to heinous crimes at worst. there are countless studies that comfirm that. losing touch with reality is not fun. separatingfiction from reality is impossible.

I completely do understand that people will read these mangas or whatever media it is, that contain these heavy topics because yes everything in life isn't all fun and games and it is nice to see some people actually address it and not treat it as just porn. So I do see why you read potn,, I just really wish more people saw it that way.

And for sure, some BLs are amazing, like Dark Heaven which addresses homophobia and racism amongst other things but it's realistic and hard to sit through, but you can tell the time and effort that went into making it and the thought behind it,, muah. And it's just sad because in "yaoi" manga specifically things like r*pe in manga are VERY normalized as in it's just a mistake on one character's end, oh it was a heat of the moment thing. And then it's almost they never face the consequences/ r*pe is simply not treated like a big deal, it's just something that happens.

And for sure, the internet masks a lot for people,, and that's something that can't be controlled. I've seen comments on twitter on a page of someone that made art of a 19 yr old and a 45 year old in love (LOL), amongst the whole drama surrounding this other artist, and one said something along the lines of, "wow i thought i was the only one who fantasized about this, glad to know im not". Like...the internet is really letting people come out and act like saying this stuff is okay and making people think that these things are right...and for art, intention isn't always everything. You may not have intended to potray r*pe in a romanticized way or you may have not tried to downplay the severity of the whole situation but if people call you out on it, that's perfectly fine on their end and called for, even. It doesn't all have to be "if you don't like it just block and move on". People just have to accept these criticisms more cause it's being said for a reason. And if people actually cared about how their art, that they made public, affects others, then there should be the mindset of "how can i do better" and just really reflecting on stuff.

For your last point, that's something I find the hardest to I guess...to retort/ just finding the exact words is difficult,, the whole "well that's like saying violent video games influence people to kill people in real life". For now what I can come up with is kind of like, we ALL know, to put it very simply...killing is bad. Whether it's in war, murder, the death sentence, etc,, it's I think a very common idea we share that killing will have and should* have it's consequences. But, for things like r*pe, and pedophilia/very large age gaps (ig there's nuance in that too), it seems to be something that's very debated on. Whether this and this is r*pe, whether or not the victim should be blamed for something they did, whether or not it even matters that much, like this is VERY normalized and romanticized and there is such a big back and forth with these topics specifically which just isn't the same as comparing it to seeing people kill other people in media, a whole lot. I'll stop my point about that whole thing there just cause I need more time to I guess really find the words for it, but yea. (And if possible, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it;;;;)

agreed on everythig there.

as to the comparison of video games and violence, and people saying "just like video games don't cause violence, (rape/child/etc) porn doesn't cause rape", i could talk for hours about this. i will try to make it short and concise, with bullet points:

-video games have various goals and depending on the goals, you have to use different methods to achieve it. porn has just one goal, and it's the same throughout all its genres: instant sexual gratification. the method it works on: voyeurism. you fap to watching people engage in arousing acts. so video games in themselves cannot be compared to porn because they are inherently different.
-VIOLENT video games, or any media not just depicting but also condoning, praising, glorifying or not sanctioning violent characters do indeed cause children to become more prone to hsing violent methods to achieve their goals and desires in everyday life. psychological studies prove that.
-competitive games, whether they contain violence or not, cause children to be more aggressive. also proven by psychology.
-media that contain violence but end without a resolution or satisfactory conclusion (eg. the good guy loses, the main character's fate is deemed unfair, etc.) cause kids to be more aggressive than media that contain violence but end in a satisfactorly manner (eg the bad/violent guy loses, the good has a happy end, etc.). also proven by psychological studies.
-porn has proven to have negative effects on the human brain. neurological, psychological and media studies show that people become more impulsive, irrational and less able to perform sexually in a natural setting (eg. they have erectile dysfunction when being in bed with a woman but will get hard when watching porn). there is an escalation effect, meaning that they look for more graphic and real material or experiences. this is especially concerning for pedos who consume virtual or, god forbid, real child pornography (virtual cp includes loli and shota hentai). there is also a normalizing effect, meaning that you quickly get used to and become immune to what you consume now and seek out more extreme stuff. something that seems strange to you at first can easily become normal to you the more you see of it. that is also dangerous and can encourage the diffusion of fantasy/fiction and reality. individuals who consume porn regularly show addictive behavior just like substance abusers, and they are also more prone to sexism and sexual deviance, violence and crime.

in short: it isn't about the existence or non-existence of dark topics in media that is of concern, but the way these topics are treated by the creator. creating, distributing and consuming material that contain and trivialize physical or sexual violence can lead to that violence being fetishized, romanticized, popularized and normalized in an individual and in society. so fiction is not just an entirely different world separate from ours without affecting it at all. quite the opposite. fiction can mold reality, and depending on what is consumed, that can be positive or negative for the development of a person or culture. that is an undeniable scientific fact that no biased whining or mental acrobatics can erase.

also in case anyone is wondering: i am not pulling these things i say out of my ass. i have a degree in sociology and have read and written theses on these topics. everything i said can be verified if you google them. you might need a university email account to access the actual studies without having to pay for them, but if you do thorough research you can find out how to contact the scientists themselves and ask for their works. some should be accessible for the general public, too, but i tend to warn people of reading and referring to newspaper articles that "summarize" studies. more often than not they simplify, misintepret and leave out complex and/or essential information from the studies they quote.

Oh wow, this was really informative and made me reflect on some of the points I bring up in arguments like these, so thank you for taking your time to write all of this out.

I would always get defensive about the whole "well violent video games makes kid become violent" without really understanding why I would fight back against that. The point about media having violence but then also, a resolution of some sort really stuck out to me cause I never really thought about that part. And also about escalation and becoming immune and then in then seeking out more extreme content. I definitely am gonna look into these more because it's not points I really heard being brought up in these discussions with people just on the internet.

A lot of my worry/struggle about how to word the point about dark/taboo content in media was definitely relieved by this, because I think your summary at the end says it all. Reality is most definitely affected by fiction (ofc vice versa) and reality is the foundation, so it's as you've said, just impossible to act like there is this very clean line of separation. It's about how you treat these topics and also how people respond to criticism, without constantly bringing up worthless analogies (lately that's been a pet peeve of mine) and fixating on a very small thing vs the actual problem (like how a minor called out the artist's nsfw account for having r*pe art and everybody mostly focusing on how it's an adult matter, minors should stay in their place which is true to some extent but just completely ignoring the fact that the discussion is about r*pe art). I really wish your last paragraph can be put on a plaque and just posted everywhere on the internet cause it's something a lot of people need to hear but also if they want to, argue against and open discussions.

Also I hope people realize that calling romanticization and fetishization in fiction is not taking away attention from things like r*pe and pedophilia in real life...that's also brought up a lot, like oh just focus on real life problems when these ideas online will most definitely bleed into real life. Many people can focus on more than one issue at a time and call it out as they see it, it's not difficult to understand and it's one of those last resort comebacks.

!!!! Sociology and psychology has always been the *other* thing besides art I potentially wanted to get a degree in (even though my situation w college in general as of now is weird lol). Definitely makes sense as to how you were very eloquent with your words and just how much information you had. I hope more people would read these informative articles and talks and what not and just do more research on these sensitive topics, and I hope to do so as well.

Again, thanks so much for all the information, it really did help. It was refreshing to have this conversation with you and I hope we can maybe even talk more about other things or similar things! All the best to you!!!

thank you for the kind words ahahaha

i love your last paragraph. i see this so often, like "instead of being angry at dots and lines that don't harm anybody, go help real children out there" (in the case of arguments about loli/shota hentai)... as if they are the ones actively crusading out there playing chris hansen and putting pedos in jail sure, punishing offending criminals is something we need to do, and attending to victims of those crimes, too. but when we talk about the issue of consuming dubious media, we are focussing on what is going on with the consumer and his brain. and how it can lead to potential harm down the line. it's a preventative approach that puts the mental condition of the one doing the harm into the foreground. this discussion is not about victims of crime, it's about condemning media that can produce criminals. two separate discussions, two separate issues, both having their place and addressing specific points of concern. and yes, we can indeed focus on both. it's not like one is swept under the rug or trivialized just because you bring up the other.

i wish more people came across this information and engaged in such discussions logically, too, but the fact of the matter is that every normal person knows, whether intuitively through socialization or due to their education, that rape, child pornography, violence, etc. are bad. so none of them will even pay attention to articles or videos or posts titled "why rape in media is bad". it's those that feel addressed or attacked because they enjoy such contents that flock to these discussions and then outnumber the sane person bringing the matter up. and when these discussions gain lots of traction due to that, those that were unsure about it because they consumed such entertainment but also felt guilty about it will see all these insane people outnumber the sane ones and think "if the majority says there is nothimg wrong with it, then i am not wrong for doing that". most of these mental gymnastics arise from this guilt i mentioned. in psychology it's called cognitive dissonance: two conflicting mental states cause the individual stress or an identity crisis, so they will try to convice themselves that they aren't wrong (eg. you pay 50€ for a theater ticket and the play ends up being utter shit, so rather than admitting you wasted time and money, you will say the play was good and refreshing). to me, it says a lot about someone if they choose to diminish their guilt over something instead of stopping to do that something that causes them guilt. it means personal pleasure > respecting victims. and i don't want to be near such a person.

consuming fiction that deals with issues in an improper manner for the pleasure of the consumer is still gonna make me question the morals of the person consuming such fiction. like, i am not gonna believe for a second that someone who gets off drawn or animated babies holds any respect for children and should be near or around children. they are not harming real babies with such consumption, sure, and there weren't any victims in the creating process of that material, perhaps, but the mere idea of children being sullied like that in someone's mind is what is the issue. just because someone hasn't committed a crime YET doesn't mean we can't judge, distrust and worry about them.

thanks again for the nice words and the productive discussion, and all the best to you, too!

This entire conversation is the most coherent and reasonable thing I have read on this site

Preach

I really do agree with the fact that people really should have more discussions with actual arguments that aren't "if you don't like it, move on and ignore", because why do you say that? Why not try to make other people understand somehow if you believe in what you say so strongly and get super defensive if somebody calls it out? Yes, people aren't obligated to argue back but especially if you have a big platform, you should have these discussions or else there's just no progress whatsoever. Why not see what the other side has to say instead of completely dismissing it?

And the point about "just because someone hasn't committed a crime yet doesn't mean we can't judge, distrust and worry about them" is something I 100% agree with cause in some situations with people making these problematic content like art/writing/ whatever it may be, they'll say "we don't support it just because we create content on it", and it's like, well yea you won't say you support it outright, but your actions are very telling. You have to just try to understand why you're getting the backlash you're getting. And when I see people arguing against these problematic things being romanticized in media, I'll hear a lot of "wow you guys must think you're very progressive or morally superior" or "you're 15 and found out what SJWs are" (LOL I literally got that reply once...) like? What is this adding to the conversation...how are these like arguments or just like what's the point of saying these? Also is it bad to...be progressive?

Sorry, wasn't sure if I should reply back cause it did sound like I was ending my part of the discussion but also I felt weird about not replying back. this is for u

i agree with everything you said. absolutely. and you're a sweetheart for that last paragraph ahaha

If it's that important to you, pass it on to the author. Speaking as a reader, I don't care a flying f***.

i’m a little late to this but i just wanted to say thank you for posting this because i’ve felt this way for awhile now and haven’t been able to voice my opinions due to the number of people brushing this topic off by saying it’s not real or it’s no that serious and a bunch of bs. but as you’ve said fictional pieces of work have a lot of influence on people especially if they’re underage and get influenced by anything and everything and it’s truly upsetting and sad to see so many people justifying this just because the art is good or that the characters are good looking. this will set a mentality in their head that rape or sexual assault or harassment can be excused in certain context which is so unhealthy and unsafe of people to think

I wish I could like this comment!!! If this were Reddit I would give you some gold <3

I wish I could like this comment!!! If this were Reddit I would give you some gold (⌒▽⌒)

agreeing a bit, disagreeing some too. just a few thoughts to consider though, there are people who have rape kinks but it's a type of play that can be completely consensual. it's kind of dehumanizing to assume someone who has a kink for rape-play or jacks off to rape-fiction as abnormal. we don't kink-shame guys if it's a completely safe and consensual thing.

also i kind of disagree on the reality to fiction thing. yes this does present itself in a setting based on the human "realism" but the real reason why a series would be problematic isn't because of that. it's when it discusses a taboo topic or a criminal act (like rape or pedophilia) and attempts to convince you that it's a perfectly normal thing despite any art form it decides to express itself in.

the reason why rape in pornography is "allowed" is because the form of expression it places itself in isn't to convince a group of people with a political viewpoint. the entire purpose of pornography is simply to jack off. and with it being directed towards an adult audience, it's assumed that the audience will be able to understand that this is only meant for "entertainment" and not to be applied to reality.

i definitely agree that your criticisms are necessary and valid though. it's good that people are calling out toxic and unhealthy romanticization of certain medias (especially with a bunch of kids and whatnot discovering porn). but i'd also be mindful of the fact that most of the adults here understand the difference and don't support rape in reality whatsoever. we're kinky people but consent is king.

This^^^

thank u!!!!