Absolutely beautifully said! I love TJ but I’m here for JoIan!
Same I’m here for Jo and Ian
People can have a completely different take from you without it meaning they don’t have any reading comprehension. It just means we’re looking at the same story from different lenses. Anyway, my understanding is so wildly different from yours that I needed to speak up just to give a different perspective. So if you don’t mind, here’s my two cents:
For starters, I don’t agree with this idea that TJ is some villain manipulating or gaslighting Ian. Someone with the energy you say TJ has, would’ve taken advantage of this current dangerous situation in order to keep Ian close. TJ didn’t. He’s desperate for Ian not to leave him, yes, but he also respects and loves him too much to put his selfish desires above Ian’s safety.
Also, their power dynamic alone doesn’t back up that idea. The way I look at it, Ian simply is the dominant of the two. Not only is Ian a little too aware of TJ’s true nature to be fooled into false beliefs, but he is fueled by this need TJ has to rely on him him as well. Prime example is a reference to chapter 15 when Ian smirks to himself when he verbalizes the fact that TJ quite literally needs him. It’s because of this same belief that Ian didn’t want to leave now when TJ asked him to, pushing TJ to ghost him instead.
To take the fact that two men who had only each other to rely on and twist it to call the fact that they think of each other as family “toxic” is just wrong to me. It’s fine if you don’t believe in chosen families, but that doesn’t actually change the fact that that’s what hey’ve been to each other. Does it have an impact on the fact that it strengthened their bond? For sure. But it’s also accurately the only way they can think to define the importance they have on each other’s lives. I think it might be harder for some of you to see that because sex is a part of their relationship.
Naturally, what we judge to be the proper, healthy way to love someone is to wish the best for them and to be able to let them go when they want to leave… or to leave when they ask us to. However those two struggle to do that because they’ve depended on each for too long without properly communicating with one another.
This created a codependency that they can only break away from through means of communication and a respect of each other’s boundaries. TJ needs to learn to let Ian go when he needs to. Ian needs to respect TJ’s boundaries when he asks him to stay away. That’s why communication will help them. Even if they don’t end up together romantically, they’ll ultimately still have each other and that would still make for a good ending.
Anyway, it’s clear you’re a Jo shipper which is fine, I’m cool with his character. I just think it’s a shame when fans reduce one relationship to something vile that should be erased when that’s not how it’s been portrayed to be. I’ve been enjoying this story but it’s really hard to have fun conversations on it with people when it feels like some can’t be objective when they look at every character.
Hope we keep it civil.
I didn't say "anyone who disagrees with me has zero reading comprehension" or something of sorts, please don't put words into my mouth, i said that for the ones who denies Jo's impact in Ian's life. And I still think the same. But apparently you ignored that part to defend Tj so here we go.
I never said Tj is a villain either. But I'm sorry, his love isn't selfless and him not using this situation doesn't undo all those years of selfish acts. He followed Jason's advice and kept Ian close but not too close and that "family" lie made it possible.
He ignored every single time Ian told, eventually even begged on his knees to leave the gang. He sent men so that he can't chase his dreams -cause it meant he would leave the gang and the city, he sent him to prison for 2 years and even put him im debt -in his own words "tied him down with money", he also admitted "leaning on his guilt" because Ian blames himself for everything -like Tj's scar (but in the raws we find out that Tj never wanted to be a fighter and that scar happened because he made a deal with Jason -so yes he was selfishly leaning on his guilt because he was aware of Ian's guilty complex). Gosh his selfish acts are endless and I can even pull more receipts but I'll stop here. He's now trying to protect Ian but still also trying to maintain his position in the gang. And he is the one who didn't let Ian leave the gang when he could do that several times before anyway, hell he is the one who dragged him into the gang in the first place when Jason didn't even want to take him, so protecting Ian now is the least he can do. And like Jo says here, that's what a "family" does, right?
Ian being aware of Tj's obsession and maybe enjoying it at times doesn't mean he's the dominant one. That just proves Ian doesn't a healthy mindset and what they have is insanely toxic. He always runs when Tj calls, he stayed in the gang just because that's what benefitted Tj's plans, he literally let go of his dreams of a normal life for it. I honestly don't think Ian is dominant, nor a power bottom, especially with Tj. (And I even saw Tj stans taking pride in this lol)
I already explained why I find the family thing toxic (you replied to it, remember?) and it has nothing to do with sex. That scene of Tj saying "There is only two of us left now" after Ian lost his mom and Ian's baffled expression asking "What?" isn't there for nothing, cause we know this author makes everything for a reason. In the audio drama, the creepiness of his tone and the way Ian is creeped out is even more obvious. Tj said something similar when he justified not labeling their relationship in Chapter 32. So he definitely uses it as a way to tie Ian down. Because he knows better than anyone that Ian has a trauma of leaving a family member.
Believe me, I'm not turning everything into something vile but there is a reason why we're shown some scenes -especially with an author like this- and they are there for a reason. I used lots of receipts from the story above, didn't base my takes on my "intuition".
The only thing I agree with (for the most part) is the codependency part.
I'm of course team Jo but I don't hate Tj either. I don't think he doesn't love Ian. Ian also loved him at some point -maybe he still does I'm not sure. But to me it goes without saying that it is not a healthy, selfless and pure kind of love, especially on Tj's side.
I was ready to have a good back and forth but yeah, there’s no way we’d agree on anything. “being aware of Tj's obsession and maybe enjoying it at times.” If that’s how you evaluate what being dominant or not dominant means, this conversation won’t evolve or grow anywhere. It just feels like you’re not actually seeing Ian for what he is, which sucks because it’s the layers this man has that make him dominant.
I personally like when people can be open and objective enough about every character in a story, regardless of their ships, because they’re then able to get me to see some things differently just as I do it for them. I guess that was my experience on a few threads here and on another site, so I’ve been jumping at the chance to share my thought process with people, but hey. Not everyone can make it happen.
Have a good day anyway.
But you're the one who said he's the dominant one because he is aware of Tj's true nature and is fueled by it? I simply said to me, that doesn't make him the dominant one. Tj never changed his ways nor his lifestyle so that it fits Ian's needs. If he had, he would have left the gang with him years ago, on that rooftop. Yet it was Ian who stayed sometimes for Tj's sake, sometimes by being forced by situations created by Tj. Tj himself admitted this.
I'm open when people come with views backed up with not their biased view, but actual panels and quotes from the story -like I did in my comments. But I guess you never wanted that in the first place.
You too have a good one.
They have a great potential. It's slow but it's happening :)
Let's stay strong
It’s not BECAUSE. He just is. And in addition, he is aware and fueled by the aspects of TJ’s true nature. This was an argument against the idea that he’s been gaslighted in any shape or form.
TJ doesn’t have to do anything just because Ian does it. If he leaves the gang, He has to want to do it for himself.
My main issue really is that all I hear in your arguments is that you’re seeing TJ and Ian’s relationship in a single one layered dimension: “they’re toxic.” You don’t see anything beyond that, which is why even if you don’t actually call TJ a villain, that’s how you make him sound with every point you make. To me these characters are so complexed with so much potential for growth and change, good or bad, that it makes them all the more interesting and entertaining. The positive is just as present as the negative coming from both sides.
Anyway, I think I’ll leave it here. Thanks for keeping it civil.
I didn't say Tj has to leave the gang. You said his love isn't selfish and he puts Ian first and I was clearly addressing that. I just said if it were the case, he would have put Ian's wishes first all those times Ian made clear that he wanted to leave the gang.
Most Tj stans always pull the "complex" card, as if that word alone can explain it all, or excuse and justify clearly toxic and unhealthy behavior. Noone denies that the characters are complex and layered, and noone also denies that Tj might have good deeds. My posts above talk about his problematic actions because I was addressing your comments. You were the one who first came under my comment, saying that you totally disagree with me and painted Tj as the selfless hero. When you said your takes are "wildly different" from mine, I bet you didn't expect me to suddenly start believing in your subjective view of Tj just because you said so.
In all my comments I shared my view and supported them with actual proof from the story and even the audio drama. And nothing you said are convincing enough, or backed up with actual receipts so it's normal for me to keep standing my case.
Guess we can agree to disagree at this point.
Selfless hero…? How? He’s far from that. And The complexity isn’t meant to excuse or justify anything, It’s meant to explain that the characters are way more fleshed out than some of you seem to believe. By reducing him to nothing but a “toxic” person, everything else about the character is either ignore or dismissed, which I find to be quite sad given the complexity of the story and the characters inside it.
Anyway, it seems I got none of my points across, so this will be my last attempt for real lol. I’ve said some of it before, but here goes my complete picture:
If this latest arc showed me anything, it’s that it is very likely that for as many times as TJ manipulated the situations to keep Ian at his side, Ian’s behavior, which was to put himself in a place where he’d be the one TJ relied upon, also played a major role in their entire dynamic. Like the way he didn’t listen to TJ telling him to stay away. This must have occurred more than once over the course of their relationship. We can come to that conclusion because TJ thought to himself that Ian never listens when he tells him something; he just does what he pleases.
TJ as a character tends to surprise me because I expected him to be much darker when he was first introduced. I expected him to threaten Jo away from Ian, to manipulate situations so Ian would never spend time with other men, etc. (I blame other BLs for this).
TJ understands Ian so intrinsically that he doesn’t push more than he should. He takes what he knows Ian is able to give him because he knows it would smother him enough to end it. However they’ve spent so much time relying on each other as friends, family and lovers that they’ve developed a codependency that led Ian not to think of the possibility that TJ loved him too much to put him in danger.
Just as it occurred to Ian during his latest sex scene with TJ, I believe that their chemistry and the intensity of their sex life has much to do with the fact that it’s their way of basically licking each other’s wounds. Of dealing with the emotional tumult they’ve got going on. It’s their coping mechanism and whether they like it or not, it’s what makes their bond stronger and harder to separate. While TJ loves Ian romantically, I believed that what drives Ian to TJ was NEED and the kind of love you have for someone you cherish rather than someone you’re in love with… Chapter 45 proved me wrong because it turns out that all those feelings got so messy that Ian cannot tell he’s actually still in love with TJ.
I don’t believe Ian is good for Jo either, and while it would be best for him to stay away from the mafia business, I would actually want to see Ian more involved in the whole story because that would entertain me. And I lowkey would like him him to interact with TJ more. (Yes, if I wrote that story, this piece would be a threesome).
Anyway, as far as I’m concerned, If Ian chooses Joe in the end, then he really should stay away from TJ’s business. If it’s TJ, then Ian should learn to respect the boundaries TJ put in place and vice versa. In this situation, TJ wouldn’t have disappeared on him without a word if Ian had respected this.
I believe our takes mainly differ about Tj and Ian's relationship dynamic. To me it's obvious that it was Tj who set up that dynamic which he describes as "more than family or lovers" and Ian simply played along because he wasn't ready to lose Tj or abandon him (the whole chapted 32 proves these points). He can't abandon a family member again when he has all that trauma with his mom. And Ian admitted twice that he wanted to label their relationship in the past. So it doesn't make sense to me when people say Ian is the dominant one or it was him who wanted this kind of relationship
Because in any relationship, you have the person who looks up to the other person, which in this case is TJ. Then you have the person who dictates the pace of the relationship, which in this case is Ian. It’s not that it’s 100% one or the other, but that it’s mainly that way. In a relationship with a dynamic like that, Ian isn’t being fooled or gaslit into anything. He’s the dominant one, all too aware of the state of their relationship. It’s not because TJ had the tendency to want to manipulate situations so Ian doesn’t leave him that it means he’s being gaslighted either. Ian decided to leave the gang because he was scared at the fact that he wasn’t feeling any kind of remorse or grief after someone died. That scared him. TJ’s desperate belief that he can’t truly move forward without Ian would actually prove the opposite. That it’s Ian who induced him into thinking that he can’t properly do any of it without him. It’s another holler at how their power dynamic works.
Also The way you say this, it’s as though TJ referred to him as family with malicious intentions. When TJ found Ian doing drugs again, it scared him to the point of tears, which Ian tried to make light of. TJ felt compelled to remind Ian that it would kill him in the end, especially given his history. He felt compelled to remind him that they were both all each other had anymore because they both didn’t have any other family. It’s not because someone voices that they’re all each other has, that it automatically means they’re gaslighting the other person. When TJ said that, Ian wasn’t trying to leave him. They were already with each other. The fact that Ian himself can say that about a relationship he sometimes wants to run away from, makes it truer in a sense.
Anyway, I’m sure we’ll get a clear conclusion on what the author meant for readers to understand about the story we’ve been told so far by the end of it all.
I love and agree with the way you interpreted everything and I agree with you, I definitely don’t hate TJ but he and ain’t are not healthy for each other and I believe Jo will help Ian heal and they will have some relationship development at some point
He and Ian *
Bro, thanks for standing up for Joseph. Most people in the fandom are slandering him just because he's the rival of TJ. If you pay attention, Jo put more efforts to heal Ian than TJ.
Nuh uh I love Jo more than TJ and I think Ian will be different with him, he’ll have a character development and a new personality and I guess we’ll love it
Did you check the latest raw
No, what’s up? spell the tea sis or send me a link so I can check it out
Well they can slander for all they want but it won't elevate their fav or erase all the things he did to Ian.
Sorry but the way people downplay Jo's impact just gives zero reading comprehension Imagine someone like Ian, who was gaslighted for years to believe that he has only one family and friend (and that's why he stayed in that mess of a fwb thing and wasn't able to leave because "we only have each other"), who believes it's his karma to not live the life he wants, who was forced to stay in the gang that he hates, who was in this codependent, toxic and non-committed relationship of a mess. And imagine Jo becoming the first ever person he let in his life in FOREVER. Despite all the self-worth and self-blame issues he has, despite not even THINKING of having a friend, despite having all that dark past, he let Jo in. I can't believe people also ignore how it wasn't always Jo who came to Ian, Ian came back to him too, after rejecting him after their first sex and also after Jo came with food to find him with another man. So don't make it look like Jo is pushing his way forcefully when Ian looked for him too. And also it was Ian who accepted his hand, the same Ian who kept refusing people FOR YEARS.
So please stop downgrading Jo into a pick me guy who is bound to be pushed away and also stop ignoring how Ian also has feelings for him, like he himself admitted in ch36.
It's one hell of a struggle to leave a toxic relationship and get out of that cycle. Ian has been trying and he has shown potential. Of course it's hard and he'll find himself in that cycle later again. He won't change overnight. But I believe he'll heal and him healing means him leaving this mess behind.
And in this chapter Jo has proven that he is not one to give up easily. The one who is more resilient will be with Ian in the end. Jo doesn't wanna be a replacement (he says this in a later chapter) so he'll prove that he isn't. And he is already slowly gaining that place in Ian's heart. Maybe Ian isn't in love with him yet, but he cares about him a lot and it's a MIRACLE for someone like Ian, who doesn't let in others.
So I need my Jo stans to have faith. This is a love triangle and the author made sure many times that all the characters will have their time to shine and will have similar screentime. If one side is fed a lot, it means the other will be fed later. And I believe JoIan stans will be fed more and more, especially in the later parts of the story.