Finder no Souen - chapter 2, part 5 - SPOILERS (and a WARNING, not for the faint of heart,...

Yep. At times. But then Aki became a respite from business. That part wasn't planned, though it benefits him.

His father's organization is "worse than the Yakuza" and Asami was a cold blooded killer in high school. I'm guessing he learned young.

I'm not completely sure about that, though. I think (at least, initially), there was something else that induced Asami to keep Aki by his side. The fact that Aki is a journalist-photographer, and I remember that the stalker Onoda was a journalist too and then started doing something shady, rang my bell.

Well yes, again, it did work beautifully for me until Finder No Souen. Maybe what I'm having trouble with is the disparity between the tone of FNS and the manga. In spite of the fact that Aki's rape is pretty brutal, it's presented through that ravishment fantasy optic that gives it a perverse glamour. In fact, the entire series has a dark glamour to it, a sleek beauty that only winks at reality.

Kuroda's rape, however, is a completely different tone, a far harsher realism that the manga never comes close to portraying. There is no wash of glamour to it at all. It's like you're watching a Bond film and all of a sudden it cuts to No Country For Old Men.

So that's where I'm having trouble. Erotically perverse criminal James Bond, sexily raping the hot young guy doesn't fit with this emotionally harrowing backstory. These are two different stories, and when I try to make them fit together in my mind, Asami doesn't come out of it looking too good. All of my previous hard mental work has been shot to hell!

Yes, but there is a reason the stalker ended up in the river, and Aki ended up in the penthouse, no? I mean, Asami is very practical, but if you obtain his loyalty, he'll have your back.

And I realize this is entirely my problem and I may just have to stick my fingers in my ears and go "la la la" where Finder No Souen is concerned.

Don't get me wrong. I was only trying to say that as Kuroda can turn a blind eye about Asami's business, even a journalist can do the same thing (even an honest person as Aki can finish doing something shady to protect Asami). And is useful to Asami to have friends/lovers that would like to protect/help him when things become difficult.

You are forgetting all that matter between Fei and his brother, there's nothing sexy in it and it seems to me that Sensei likes to mingle the upsetting 'dark tones' of real rape with the more glamorous tones of rape as a sexual fantasy.

Tbh, I'll have to agree. Also, the more little innocent kid Akihito runs into Asami, the more it hurts to think how their first meeting in the manga went. I know Yamane Ayano intended for that to be cute, but honestly, it made it worse for me. Finder no Souen kinda casts quite a dark shadow on most everything that happens in the manga in more than one way.^^

But again, the darkest parts of that story do not take place in the manga. They're in a separate novel. What takes place within the manga isn't explicit. And Yan Tsui (was that his name?) is a villain, not a main character cast more or less in a heroic role.

Trying not to think about that aspect of it at all!

But it's enough to show how fucked up is Yan Tsui in his mind and the kind of un-brotherly feelings he has for Fei. Yeah, the darkest part is in the novel. Could it be that Sensei prefers to show the ruthless part of the story with a novel instead of a manga?

Oh yes. I think Asami is very pragmatic that way.

That may be. I mean, the manga is erotica and novels allow for a different type of story telling.

Spoilers in this comment:










I totally agree that there is a major moral dissonance between current Asami that raped Akihito and teenage Asami who witnesses the brutal rape of Kuroda; however, the dissonance is based on our own moral standards, and most likely (and logically) Asami does not navigate the world from our moral perspective. I would argue that Asami is definitely a man of "principle", but not our own, but his own type of "code". I mean, here we have a man who as a teenager had no compunction in killing ten men, easily breaking the neck of the gang leader; how can we expect such an exceptional/atypical individual to be hindered by standard morality? I share others' position in that Asami was not affected by the gang rape "per se", he killed those men because they dared to hurt the only person he valued at that point in his life; he would have reacted the same if Kuroda had just been beaten without being raped. Based on his killing skills, we can infer at that point Asami had already seen and/or done some heavy brutal shit; therefore, he wasn't psychologically affected by the brutal rape, for him, it was probably nothing more than a retaliatory method commonly used in the Yakuza/Gang/Underworld.

Also, the Mangaka represented Akihito's rape distinctly from Kuroda's gang rape. Kuroda's was conspicuously, indisputably brutal, all horror and pain; Akihito's was presented in the "fantasy rape" trope, a one-on-one with the two lead protagonists, where Asami made sure to stimulate Akihito's sexual desire with an aphrodisiac before he initiated the bdsm scene. There's no denying it was rape, however, Akihito was conspicuously feeling pleasure, and his pain was no worse than what we have seen other ukes in other mangas feel their first time; of course, Akihito's was exacerbated by feelings of humiliation, anger and frustration for feeling pleasure under such circumstances. Again, nobody can deny that Asami raped Akihito on their first time, but to call it "brutal" is a matter of subjectivity. I personally enjoy the literary fantasy "rape" trope, the idea of a gorgeous male, forcefully taking and seducing (raping) the equally gorgeous uke, forcing him to feel pleasure despite uke's protestations, etc. etc. is very exciting, which is how I view Asami's rape of Akihito, which has nothing to do with the animalistic brutality that Kuroda experienced; but again, in order to accept this viewpoint, one must make a clear distinction between literary fantasy rape (sprinkled with romanticism) from the brutality of real life rape.

This conversation is going in circles. Yes, yes, yes to all of this. I'm not arguing against Akihito's rape being a ravishment fantasy and that he was digging it and all of that. I am just saying--again--that there is a disparity between not just that rape but the entire tone of the manga and the tone of the novel.

There's also a whole in the argument that Asami simply doesn't view rape in the way we do, doesn't see it as being that damaging to his friend. But then it is argued that he uses rape as a punishment, tool, deterrent, which suggests that he is very much aware of the psychological impact of rape on the victim. That, then, says that he knows and he does not care and that is the crux of the problem.

"hole" in the argument. Damned autofill.

Well, Asami knows it will have an effect on Aki, sure--but Asami may not see it as being as devastating as other options. He had to do something about Aki at that point. Many criminal organizations would break Aki's fingers and camera and maybe put out his eyes so that he takes no more pictures. This stops him permanently and sends a message to others about snooping. Or they might just kill him. Shoving the film up his ass is not nice, but Aki can and did recover from that. I think Asami had multiple motives for the rape.

I just engaged with you for the first time in this conversation, so I don't think it's going in circles; however, in the spirit of harmony I will have to agree to disagree with your position and retire from the discussion after this response. I understand exactly why you perceive a gap between the moral tone of the manga and novel, because there would be, if Asami were a typical individual guided by typical morality. There is only a "crux" if you apply that moral expectation on Asami, if you expect Asami to suffer from an ethical/moral conflict in his actions between what he witnessed happened to Kuroda and his role as an Underworld boss in the manga and the many atrocities he probably must commit in order to thrive in such a violent world, including his raping Akihito.

Also, very importantly, I did not make the argument that Asami doesn't see rape as "damaging" to Kuroda or damaging in general, what I tried to (I guess poorly) articulate, is that Asami wasn't affected so much by the fact that Kuroda was "raped", but by the simple fact that Kuroda was "hurt", because rape in Asami's world must be a common retaliatory/punishing tool; but just because it's common, it does not mean that Asami does not understand its severity or how damaging it can be to a person. I would argue that this is why he did not rape Akihito in such a brutal manner, his intent was never to mindbreak Akihito, his intent was to sexually dominate Akihito.

I guess the crux for you is that even though Asami in the novel experienced the terrible consequences of brutal rape on a "loved" one, Asami in the manga has no problem using rape to punish. That crux becomes a non-issue when we remove any typical moral expectations on Asami the underworld boss. That is the point of my argument, that there can be no moral conflict for an individual that navigates a brutal world with a moral code distinct from ours.

However, I would like to point out that I don't think we have ever seen Asami commit, order nor approve of the type of brutal rape suffered by Kuroda. We have established that his rape of Akihito does not equate to that gang rape, so what makes you so sure that there is a gap in the moral tone of the novel and the moral tone of the manga, at all? when we have never seen Asami indulge in such brutality?

Based on what we have seen of Asami in the Manga, I don't think there is. I would even argue that he has remained consistent in being caring, protective and loyal towards the very few he cares about; however, I have to admit that I have not read the novels in their entirety, so it could be that I'm missing very important nuances and that you may be ultimately correct; but as of right now, I respectfully disagree that there is a disparity between the moral tone of the novel and the manga as it relates to Asami's character. In both, Asami is still a lethal and dangerous killer.

Sorry--Kuroda is the cheeky and smexy prosecutor who teases Aki about living with Asami and calls Asami by his first name. He rescues Aki and gets shot.

<opinion> But Kuroda has a smart mouth and needs discipline--clearly something Kirishima should address. And don't listen to J Unleashed on the topic. Some people just don't recognize a sweet ass when it's covered up by a suit or jacket. </opinion>