Why is everyone saying they don’t want enzo to bottom because they think he won’t like...

umm yes, we clearly have a preference, and thats not the same as hating switch or anything, I would totally read switch if it makes me think I would love that (TToTT)

One of my favourite type of stories to read are selfish dom tops taking advantage/being abusive of the bottom. DW, I know my type of fiction, it's basically non-con fiction with strict top/strict bottom.

Well, non consensual stuff (whatever that is, I have lots of lines of what that is though, lots of more horrific stuff out there.) that's only being done to a specific fictional character who I like.

Sometimes I do like the specific fictional character I like, also doing horrific stuff to other characters though? This one isn't it, oh well.

Nvm, I'd like for Enzo's ____ to be _______ too.

first of all, everyone and their mothers cared, and a lot of people said they were going to drop this title after lorenzo forced himself on adrian.

feelings and preferences aside, the author has already laid the groundwork for their dynamic with those earlier rough chapters, and now the two of them are only just starting to build trust and show vulnerability. having adrian top at this point would throw a wrench into that emotional progression. i know that may be a non-issue in other titles, but i think it'd require this story to spend more time rebuilding what they've only just started to establish, and afaik the author said bad apple would be shorter than red candy, so we don't really have the luxury of time.

maybe once they're in a better place, i could actually see vers working. but honestly, i just don't see it happening in the next few chapters without turning this into slop, given the direction the author is taking (◞‸◟；)

that said, i'm more than happy to be proven wrong as long as the vers/switching is written well, because i love bad apple way too much and i don't wanna see it being reduced to slop ദദ╥ ᴗ ╥)

It doesn't make sense at all! This isn’t about Enzo and more about Rian. Enzo might even be willing to bottom, or not, just to mess with Rian... he's that twisted. The thing is that Rian's character is at a crucial point. If he's able to top even THAT after everything, there's really no reason for him to change his preference, especially since his previous experiences bottoming were shit... both times!

I expected Enzo to be the one to develop meaningful feelings first, which would lead him to respect Rian. But he seems too detached and pessimistic. He just now realized that Rian kissing him like that their first time wasn't purely performative, and it was because he really enjoys kissing! On the other hand, Rian has started to see Enzo as a real person, so if that certain experience doesn't improve, all the buildup to this point feels meaningless. Why even put them through that?!!!

The people I’m referring to are the people who have no gripes with how rian was treated but now have a problem with it because they can’t stand the idea of couples being vets cus it doesn’t fit in their narratives of gay relationships. And your own comment about how lots of people said they were going to drop it is why I’m so sure about these people in my original comment, cus the people who did drop this were the ones who had a Robles with how tian was treated and would also have a problem with enzo being treated TAHT while. While the ones who are still actively reading are majority hating on enzo bottoming because they have a preference but refuse to admit it and instead claim it’s because they somehow don’t want him to be treated the exact same way as he treated rian, showing they are majority hypocritical. Obviously not all ppl who want rian to only be a bottom are being hypocrite, like I don’t think you are, but as you said a good majority of people who did dislike rian being assaulted proceeded to drop this, so this implies the people who didn’t drop it but do have a problem with enzo bottoming, are annoyed with enzo bottoming not because of the fact that it wouldn’t be something he enjoyed/likely assault, but because they do not want to admit they simply don’t want him to bottom and instead make up hypocritical excuses of not wanting enzo to be forced while simultaneously ignoring and having no care for when it happened to rian. Also sorry if I repeat myself a lot it’s just how I talk tbh

You're not superior for wanting a switch couple dude lol, I'm so tired of switchers/vers acting this...

First of all this isn't meant to portray a realistic relationship, we're dealing with a mafia boss here and the other character is a spy lol;

Second, having preferences for FICTIONAL CHARACTERS doesn't translate to real world. If you're reading this you should be an adult and know how to discerne this type of thing;

Third, just because someone doesn't want a FICTIONAL couple to switch doesn't mean they're against switching in general. I've personally LOVED some switch stories like Neko to Neko or Thirst, but there are some couples, like this one,where I prefer a fixed dynamic.

Fourth, even gays irl have sexual preferences, so this discussion is moot to begin with.

There's nothing wrong with liking a fixed dynamic, but ppl who act superior because they don't prefer it are annoying. You do you, we do us

hmm interesting... i never saw enzo that way. i think we're just focusing on different parts of his character. i see someone who's clinging to control, while you see someone who's twisted enough to use bottoming to mess with adrian... i think that's where we differ. what doesn't make sense to you about my interpretation is exactly what doesn't make sense to me about yours. for someone so desperate to stay in control, i just can't picture enzo willingly giving that up at this point.

as for adrian:
i actually think adrian is empathetic enough to put his own wants aside for now because he is starting to understand where lorenzo is coming from.

i also agree that this is a crucial point for adrian's character. it's just that, i don't think he'd force the issue *just because he can* yes, even after everything. so this ch actually made me feel the opposite. after seeing lorenzo's scars + recalling their previous conversation, it felt like adrian finally realized lorenzo is just trying to survive in the only way he knows how. and for me, that's why he backed off and decided against topping at this point... is how im seeing it. but he still wants to shag the guy.

i don't think either of us is necessarily wrong, we're just working with different character interpretations. i have my biases but i could genuinely see either one being right depending on where the author takes enzo. looking forward to the next chapter either way!!! ₍ᐢ. .ᐢ₎ ₊˚⊹♡

erm, yeah, i'm not really on either "team" here. i'm just discussing the plot and what i think fits the characters at this point in the story. that's all i'm trying to say.

that and i agree with @luluroma

I really appreciate both of your analyses; they're really fascinating! I agree that we have differing opinions on some points, but for the most part, I find your arguments to be valid. However, I don't think Enzo is as rigid as you suggest. If someone is too obsessed with control, that can be a weakness in itself. Sometimes, it’s necessary to relinquish control to manipulate your opponents, like how Enzo tolerated those old guys at the Consortium because he intended to kill them and take their money anyway!

And while I argue that he’s twisted enough to go that far, I don’t think that Enzo would actually bottom at this point. I argued that it wouldn’t make sense for Rian’s character development. Also, because of the feelings Rian's developing through his empathy, he's not gonna treat Enzo like a plaything. He just saw the humanity in him.

I think Enzo might eventually want to bottom willingly, but only once he has real feelings for Rian and begins to appreciate him as an equal. Right now, Enzo sees Rian as entertainment, or at best, an asset. Even now, he's playing, even if it seems he's bargaining or distracting Rian, while Rian is the one who has something to prove here. First, he's not a pushover; second, he's not as cruel as Enzo.

This was nice, loved this chat~

And vice versa you are not superior for wanting a top bottom couple and I’m so tired of people like you acting like this. Firstly I’m fully aware this is a fictional couple, they are characters on a screen. Secondly to act as though real life preferences don’t have any influence on preferences for “FICTIONAL CHARACTERS” is also a “moot point” because they can have no influence or full influence or fully inbetween, it all depends on the people and situation, so you making this point is silly because the exact opposite of your claim is also true. Third, I never claimed the people I’m referring to hate all switching, I’m claiming they are hypocritical for hating the idea of these “FICTIONAL CHARACTERS” potentially switching, more specifically I have been consistently talking about the people who dislike the idea of enzo bottoming because they think it is forceful while ignoring how rian was in the exact same scenario, which if you had not decided you were “superior”, you might have noticed this as it’s the only point I am criticising these people for. Forth, obviously gays irl have a pretences, and this is once again a silly point as you claim “ preferences for fictional characters doesn’t translate to the real world, meaning somehow all these gay people irl who have a perfrence for being a top or a bottom or verse, have never managed to prefer the same relationships they have irl, in these fictional stores.

Pulling on from that, are you even the actual group of the people I’m referring too?? I’ve been talking about a certain group of people, not all people who prefer non verse couples, majority of stuff I read and prefer are with top/bott couples. I’ve read through lots of comments who also prefer top/bott dynamics LIKE ME, that I think are non hypocritical points like someone said Enzo is a pretty boy and they dislike the idea of stereotypical bottom has to be pretty, which is a valid idea at least to me.

So genuine question, are you one of the people I was talking about, because if you aren’t one of those people who is perfectly okay with one character getting assaulted but not okay with it now that it doesn’t fit your narrative, why are you so mad and defensive?
Like at least to me it doesn’t seem you are one of those people because you aren’t defending the assault, but at the same time in all 4 of your points you didn’t seem to respond to my point of hypocrisy or assault so now I’m confused on if you feel offended because you are one of those people or simply because you jumped the gun the second you saw someone preferring this couple to be switches?

Also final NEKO TO NEKO IS PEAK EVERYONE READ IT. ALSO SHAMLESS PLU READ SPINACH BOUQUET (actually now TAHT I’m thinking about it it’s been a while since I read this one so I can’t remember everything maybe hold off on that one just incase)

oh, i'm not trying to box him into a rigid archetype. i just meant that's where i think he is at this point in the story. he's still struggling with control, which is why i kept emphasizing "at this point." bec i think most of the comments are about switching next chapter and to me, it just doesn't quite fit *yet*.

right now, enzo's trying so hard to maintain this perfect image (cue the flashbacks to his grandfather as well), so i don't think he's there emotionally just yet. but i'm sure learning to relinquish that control and become more vulnerable and allowing rian to see him undone will be part of enzo's character development.

and as with earlier comments i've made here, i could definitely see switching happening like you said, but only once enzo genuinely wants to and they've reached a better place in their relationship. *and just to be clear for OP, that doesn't dismiss what happened to rian. it already happened. i'm just talking about where i think the story goes from here.

honestly, it was really refreshing seeing someone explain their character interpretation so thoughtfully. it reminded me that we're all kind of at the mercy of the author here, and the possibility that i might end up being wrong honestly excites me more.

i really enjoyed this discussion too. thank you!! ₍ᐢ. .ᐢ₎ ₊˚⊹♡

it's fine it's really like i can hear you talking i hope you catch your breath you pulled zero stops and periods bro i had to read it like 10 times ꉂ(≧▽≦) but okay, i think i get what you're saying... basically, you're talking about the people who were quiet when rian was forced to bottom and only started caring once it was enzo who might end up in that position, and now oppose enzo bottoming because they say they don't want him to be assaulted, when the real reason is they just want him to keep topping / or they are fine if it keeps happening to rian ∘ ∘ ∘ ( °ヮ° ) ? if that's what you mean, then yeah, i can definitely see how that would be problematic. i'm just trying to help clear it up for everyone here, who may or may not have misinterpreted you ∘ ∘ ∘ ( °ヮ° ) ?

Wow, this was really amazing! Thank you~
I'm excited too. The next chapter, or the one after that, lol, will clarify many things!

Ah Dw this comment was replying to another person so pls don’t feel targeted by anything I said. Also yeah you completely understood the type of ppl I was talking about that’s why if anyone else sees my original comment pls only reply if it’s to someone else like how this commenter had a conversation about analysing the characters or if you are one of the people I am talking about cus if not im ngl I don’t really care what you are saying unless it’s specifically from people who think like the people I was describing.

PREACH! Nowhere in your original comment did you even imply that verse was morally superior, that response to you was truly wild. Tbh those who prefer fixed top/bottom positions are the ones acting morally superior honestly atp. 95 percent of BL stories have fixed positions and these BL fans have a disheartening attitude of trying to shut down convos whenever actual gay versatile men like me are asking for verse visibility. Like literally 95 percent of BL stories have fixed top/bottom relationships! I am glad you spoke up.

And as a verse guy, I ALSO love my power bottom relationships, and even the traditional strong top weak bottom story - I never stick to reading only verse stories. However, I will never stop asking for visbility in the stories, even if it is 'annoying' - I think the public can handle seeing comments asking for more representation. Thankyou for speaking up...

It's actually more about how people act, the way people talk Abt some stuff be straight, bl, gl, verse, you will indeed find people who sound that way (like nobody is gonna say I am superior but the way they sound will make you feel that way)

Also I understand how it feels to be represented and wanting to be represented is totally fine and wanting verse is also fine. But the thing is constantly commenting wanting verse in a show that has been clearly mentioned not to be is too much cuz if it were me I would politely leave or stay quiet so I don't ruin the fun of other people. But I guess it's too much for me to ask for others to do the same.

I understand how you feel. It's hard for me to stay objective and silent after I have seen my favourite versatile BL fic writers/fan artists lock their social media accs because of fixed position BL fans harrassing them and sending them death threats even though the BL industry caters to fixed positions. :/

When the minority doesn't have a safe place in common media where they are truly visible and normalized just like the majority, unfortunately the minority won't stay silent. Social media comments are they only place they can spread awareness.

Sure, the author won't see, but some future authors or fic writers will see the demand for verse and one day they may write their own story. I know I have. Spreading awareness can be inconvenient and annoying, unfortunately, that's the only way progress can happen. When you create a safe space and representation for minorities, then only things can change.

Look at Red Strings Quest. It features a very pretty top and a tanned muscular bottom - both have same height and similar build. Nobody in the comments is asking them to switch. Bad Apple has a different ambiguous uncertain vibe which is why some people subconsciously want them to switch. If the story presents a certain vibe and the atleast a few people pick up on that vibe - it's not an accident and it's totally fair for ppl to comment on it.

Ofc, disrespectful people who send threats or are rude from both sides should never be tolerated. Everyone is allowed to have their preferences and we should all have constructive conversations.