Could it have been a dry orgasm? Also, even if it lasted a while (which i don't think it did? Time passed between the rape and morning), i don't see how that indicates that he felt pleasure? Is it only rape up till a certain amount of time? You seem to be making the argument that because the scene might have lasted awhile that it contradicts with him not wanting it, but i don't see how. There was no break time shown, there was no pleasure shown, so i'm not sure where you got that idea from. To be clear, he felt pleasure physically, but he stated before the seme raped him that he no longer wanted to have sex with the seme and called him a rapist after so we can see he didn't want it. That along with saying no and stop the way he did, it didn't look like moans.
I'll cite pages.
1. Kirishima spent the rest of the night crying when the Kurama rejected him and called him a rapist. I.E. time passed: http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/renai_fuyuki_todoki/nmt/6fe00c70e017ea3415353c4bd13d049b_chapter-3/pg-38/
2. Kurama said at the bottom of the page that he no longer wants to sleep with Kirishima because Kirishima has feelings for him and he wants a no-strings-attached hookup as he can't see a future with another man because of his dad: http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/renai_fuyuki_todoki/nmt/6fe00c70e017ea3415353c4bd13d049b_chapter-3/pg-20/
You said the fingering is supposed to be sexy, not horrible, here is why that's not quite right. Yes, he'd always wanted Kirishima and was struggling with this throughout the rape scene as he experienced all the things he'd wanted to experience with Kirishima, but not in the good way he'd always envisioned way as he says later on pg 34 that "what Kirishima gave me is fear" and "my first time having sex was completely different from what i had imagined all this time"):
1. On page 20 (cited above), if you read through you'll notice that Kirishima got pissed off because the Kurama was looking to throw his virginity away (look at his face), then...
2. On page 21 you see him, in his anger, forcibly hold the Kurama down and drag him up the bed (it says "drag, drag, drag") while ignoring his protests: http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/renai_fuyuki_todoki/nmt/6fe00c70e017ea3415353c4bd13d049b_chapter-3/pg-21/
3. Here you see Kirishima literally say "i don't think i'll be able to do it softly, but isn't that exciting?" before he just puts spit on his fingers and immediately puts, not one, but two fingers straight into Kurama's DRY virgin asshole. Kurama says "ow" and you see Kirishima start to mercilessly thrust his fingers in and out as it says "thrust, thrust, thrust": http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/renai_fuyuki_todoki/nmt/6fe00c70e017ea3415353c4bd13d049b_chapter-3/pg-24/
4. The scene continues here with Kurama saying "no... Ah, that hurts" and "it hurts", the only time where he really feels good is when Kirishima hits his prostate, then he moans, the rest is pain: http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/renai_fuyuki_todoki/nmt/6fe00c70e017ea3415353c4bd13d049b_chapter-3/pg-25/
See? The fingering was painful for him because, as Kirishima admitted himself, he wasn't doing it softly. He only used spit as lube, Kurama's asshole was dry when he first started fingering him, he only licks Kurama's asshole after stretching him out and before using the lube. He immediately used 2 fingers on a dry, tight asshole and rather than do it slowly he immediately thrust them in and out vigorously. It's actually better to thrust them in and out vigorously, IF the asshole is wet and slick, spitting on his fingers and going into a dry ass creates SO much friction. You only thrust vigorously like that if the hole is wet and slick. It's probably BECAUSE of the suddenness and the pain that Kurama wasn't able to leave before Kirishima entered him on page 28. You can see that Kurama was a mess from all the physical stimulation. Presumably the lube was nearby as in one panel it shows Kirishima holding his dick standing above Kurama's asshole and the next Kirishima is on the bed getting ready to put his dick in with the lube down between his legs. There isn't anything indicating that the scene took that long.
As a final note, this page alone should show that the sex wasn't wanted, he was scared of the seme and batted his hand away. Did you see his facial expression and shaking too?: http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/renai_fuyuki_todoki/nmt/6fe00c70e017ea3415353c4bd13d049b_chapter-3/pg-33/
The rape felt good as he struggled between the reality and what he had always envisioned his 1st time with Kirishima would be like before he left feeling scared and hurt.
You wasted your tendons typing all this out. A rape occurred. I've already acknowledged that, youraed.
No break time was shown, but it was in the dialogue, which is why I said that the words and pictures don't match.
Saying Kurama had three or more dry orgasms during a brief, brutal rape is as ridiculous as saying he had three normal orgasms.
The author has gone to excessive trouble establishing Kurama's reasons for having severely mixed emotions regarding his homosexuality. That was done so we would know that not everything Kurama is going through is all about Kirishima. The father is a crucial element in this story. I can't even begin to imagine how someone in Kurama's position could cope with all he was going through.
Another thing, which has nothing to do with your comment. Kirishima is being accused of raping a woman. That didn't happen. There wasn't enough time.
The author needed a device that would show how disappointed and confused Kurama was by Kirishima's heterosexuality, and that it was right in Kurama's face at the worst possible moment. That's why there was a scratch. It was a visual signal that would allow Kurama to ask about it. It's not there so Kirishima can be irrevocably condemned. If it was, he wouldn't be appearing again in this manga as a lead character in a love story. Surely we can all see that, right?
The author went to considerable trouble establishing these things the same way she set up every other saving grace in the story. The problem is that it isn't in the words. As I've said before, something is off.
Honestly, i'm questioning you saying "it can't be done" as the premise of your entire argument as well. **trigger warning, i'm going to get a little explicit about my personal experience** I mean, i can say as i guy that i can cum at least twice in one jerk session. If i can make myself go twice, i don't see why someone i was into couldn't get me to go thrice while touching my prostate. It's harder to get to that point by myself, but i have orgasmed 3 times in one jerk before, the first time was normal, the 2nd not very much came out and the 3rd was a dry heave. Also, whether or not it was rape wasn't all i talked about, i also talked about the fingering and how you think it should be considered "sexy, not horrible".
Also, i discussed whether or not it was rape because you kept implying Kurama wanted it, referencing the possible amount of time the scene took place. You say there must've been breaks and he must've felt pleasure to cum multiple times. You sound contradictory since you acknowledge it as rape and make that argument. You also went on to argue that people are "misreading the scene" as "it's supposed to be sexy, not horrible". It sounds like you're trying to leave a subliminal message. Now do you see why i made it clear it was rape?
Yes, him saying ouch ouch ouch so many times is repetitive to the point of utter boredom. I'm saying it again, I don't think that's effect the author intended.
you're a guy? Really? Youraed's a man? Wow. Paradigm shift.
That's just a whole different kind of thing.
I still think the way you fight with me so much you must have a crush on me. hahaha.
I can't wrap my head around you being a man. In my head you''ve always been a tall, skinny 19 year old brat of a girl with strange brown hair and high cheekbones. Annoying, too, and with an attitude that makes me want to smack the shit out of you sometimes.
Congratulations on the prostate orgasms, man. That's quite an accomplishment, especially for a 19 year old girl. ha
Look, you can spin this thing any old negative way you want. The material is there and open to interpretation, but I'm going to come back at you again with the obvious fact that most authors don't design their scenes with the goal of turning off, offending, and causing their readers to close the story and never open it again. Also, the rest of the story doesn't support Kirishima as a violent criminal rapist, and neither does it support Kurama as a rape victim who is going to forever think of Kirishima as someone who is unredeemable. They've been madly in love with each other for years, and that isn't going to change. It's yaoi. They're definitely going to weather this storm.
You're right that he said no clearly and many times. Still, both of them are temporarily insane on this night of all nights in their lives. It's fiction, and they're allowed to be, no, expected to be, nothing at all like real human beings.
Everything you said was correct given the narrative. What I'm saying is that I don't trust the narrative, and I'm saying why and giving examples of why I think there's a way to make a much more enjoyable interpretation.
That one fingering panel is HOT. You don't see that? That's fine, but just remember this: I enjoyed that drawing, you didn't. It's your loss, man. You're a man, for real? LOL No, I believe you. I just can't get used to it.
Another damned thing, youraed, see how I'm nice to you and once in a while concede some points? Would it kill you to come out of all-out-assault mode once in a while? I'm even nice to you even though I think you dislike and just want to find fault with everything I say.
Holy shit calm down, it wasn't that serious. I'm actually 23, i have black hair and brown eyes, i'm puerto rican and white. So... I didn't really remember you when i responded and while you view my response as an attack, i really don't see how. I mean, even looking back i was just responding. As far as conceding points, i concede if i feel that i'm wrong and, in this case, i was careful to agree with what i thought was right. If you look at even my 1st response, i said "to be clear, he felt pleasure physically", which is something i was agreeing with you on. In my 2nd response i said "here is why that is not QUITE right. Yes, he'd always wanted Kirishima", again, me agreeing with you on that point while also bringing more facts forward. As you can see, i did concede...? About the scene, i did find it hot, but i also acknowledge the reality that it was rape. I don't believe i said i didn't like it? If we're getting into multiple conflicts it's probably because we disagree on a lot and, judging from your responses to another topic i just saw, you're kinda bitchy in your responses. Have you considered that your attitude just attracts me into responding to you? I remember your username, not any of our past conflicts, i suggest you move on too?
That's pretty sad when I consider your repeated attacks on me on Deadlock, a manga where I was the head of the translation team, and where I conceded almost everything to you and even apologized to the people you were so adamantly defending even though they barely had any point whatsoever; where even after that you still kept on at me, speaking to me with so much derision in front of the audience of the manga I'd put so much energy into that it became personally embarrassing to me. You don't remember me? Well I sure as hell remember you.
On another manga a while back, you were so much on the attack against every single thing I said no matter what, that I told you I never read your comments so don't bother confronting me anymore. That you don't remember any of this probably means you treat everyone with the same nasty, humorless attitude you use on me. By the way, a polite concession is usually preceded by, "I see your point on this or that," or "I think you're right about such and such." It's what happens in a polite discussion where you remember that the person on the other end is a human being.
if I discuss things with someone, I usually remember them. I remember a lot of people here, and if I comment on a story, I remember every bit of it without needing you to post a bunch of quotes from it.
Your swipe at me, "This is what I'm talking about" was nothing but rudeness. As if I'm going to walk away, thinking, "golly gee, youraed chastised me so all my points must be wrong. I must strive to improve myself." LOL. What I really think is that you don't have any of your own opinions so you prey on mine or other people's, which just makes you a little bitch. Get your own opinions instead of always figuring out ways to pick mine apart.
1st, i guess i should apologize since you seem to have been hurt by me, i'm sorry.
2nd... ლ(´ڡ`ლ) god i want to be a "bitch" since i tend to not take paragraphs like that laying down, but i guess i'll fuck off since it seems to have been said because of said hurt. I will say that if i was an asshole to you, it's usually for a reason, but maybe i went too far.
Fine, i'll just leave with that apology. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
He could have come from being fingered and twice from being fucked...in the yaoi world, that isn't that unusual in one session. Your comment wants to have it both ways - 'in the real world, it's not like this' and 'but in yaoi, this always means this.'
Dude feels raped. Dude said no. Dude felt pleasure. Last statement doesn't negate the first two. He was probably in shock and in a bit of pain from the initial almost-dry fingering. He seems to be completely blindsided and his dreams are getting crushed in real time. That would be a lot to take in while getting fingered and penetrated. I don't really get what your issue here is.
I mean, I fully expect the author to walk this back with some bullshit from the uke about how he was overreacting and was just ~scared of his own feelings~ or something but the sequence of events makes pretty clear sense to me.
the narrative ridiculously contradicts itself. It's impossible to match up the words with the pictures. Clearly, the sex scene was very long, almost all night, and there had to have been periods of time when Kurama relaxed, felt passion and lust toward Kirishima. How do we know this? Because Kurama states that he came several times. It's not possible for a man to come three or more times during a brief, brutal rape. If we're to believe that the narrative is all there, that nothing is missing or lost in translation, then all the characters must be mutant aliens from another world. There needs to be moments during their sex that hint at Kurama feeling good at least ONCE. Jesus, otherwise the scene is a total loss. The way it reads now, that's how it is: a total loss. I just don't believe that's what the author intended.
What author in all of yaoidom takes the trouble of making anatomical drawings of the prostate being stimulated and the uke reacting to it with this internal dialogue being, "all I feel is fear and insanity." Bullshit. NO WAY. His body convulses. In yaoi, that reaction is sexual bliss. Next, his eyes roll up in his head. Am I supposed to believe that that is not a mind-blowing orgasm? According to these stupid words, it's a reaction of agony and going nuts from fear. Fuck that. It's not what's being shown.
Where is the expression of Kurama feeling what the words say he felt? This scene that seemed like wham bam rape, doesn't fit with the words spoken and unspoken. Something is off. This scene being perceived the way people are saying they perceive it is not what the author wanted in my opinion.
The story is crafted well enough that it's clear that an idiot didn't write it, but the way it reads, an idiot would have had to have written it.
Kurama didn't hate the kisses, and the picture where Kirishima fingers him is supposed to be sexy, not horrible. Why else would the artist take the trouble to draw it so well?
Kirishima wasn't using as much force as the dialogue and narrative says he is. He had time to get out the vaseline and prepare Kurama. You can't do that with a victim who is wriggling around, trying to get away while being forced against his will in every possible way. Something is missing, and it's annoying because this scene didn't have to be as terrible, violent, and torturous as the words would have us believe.
Kurama's reaction to being penetrated is the shock of someone realizing they've now past the point of no return. With his family, that moment would be devastating, but it would not be without the thrill of getting fucked by your fantasy partner of many years. The feelings portrayed are confusion, fear, passion, panic, and arousal all blended together. That's the reaction I see. I don't see, "Ouch ouch ouch, trying to get away." I see someone reeling because they're world is being rocked to the core.