A word to fellow readers...

Heh, cheating is not all that uncommon either. I just read a news story where a website dedicated to people looking for others to have affairs with was hacked - and it has 37 million subscribers! Also. there is a city in Canada where one in five residents (adults) is a member of this site. That is a lot of cheating.

My opinion on cheating tends to be different from most. I see cheating as a symptom of a much bigger problem in the cheater's life. Be it an emotional or psychological issue or even just unhappiness in their current relationship. Until the bigger problem is sorted out, the cheating will not be dealt with fully. I've been on both sides, cheated on and cheater. The real issues were never about the cheating - mine or theirs. Once I dealt with my own problems, cheating has never been a concern.

You have the right to love "cheating" plots and others have the right to dislike them and express themselves. There are a lot of good yaoi which do not need that to be good stories, that's my opinion.

You are absolutely correct. Just as everyone else has a right to have and post their opinion, SO DO I. And my opinion is that readers have 3 options: read something else, grow a thicker skin or wait to read a 18+ restricted genre until you're mature enough to understand and cope with adult themes and situations (whatever AGE that may be for you - 16 or 96).
In 800+* yaoi the top 4 plot conflicts are:
#1 Personal Insecurity About Being Homosexual/Being Chosen as a Lover
#2 Cheating or Assumed Cheating
#3 "Rape" or Forced Intercourse (as a conflict, not a lead in for sex)
#4 Female Intervention
If the #2 plot conflict in 800* yaoi is cheating, I'm pretty sure a reader is going to run across it at some point. It's not like there is a "cheating" category or genre, so readers should be prepared for it as a matter of course. Whining about it in EVERY topic section of EVERY manga containing cheating borders on obsessive. I was simply trying to get this point across.
*800 is the number of yaoi I can personally attest to.

In my opinion, you didn't like my opinion and felt the need to defend yours. Good for you, that is what civil debate is all about. I believe opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and they all stink. Even mine. Next time, however, bring me reasons for your opinions - not just more opinions. I will always listen and try to understand - even if I don't agree. Who knows, you might just sway my opinions. It's been done before. Thanks for this opportunity to have a lively discussion/debate. I look forward to further discussions with you.

P.S. No one said I "loved" cheating plots. I actually hate to see favorite characters betrayed. I just don't feel the need to comment as if I'd been the one cheated on. Separating real life from fiction/fantasy is a necessity for any reader.

I don't like the idea of cheating, but I enjoy reading cheating plots when the characters still love each other in the end. I don't completely agree with Kei's reason for cheating on Megumu, but I think that it's okay in the end, because he realized that he can't keep cheating on Megumu just to confirm his feelings for him. As long as the characters are happy, I think that there's no need to make such a huge fuss over it. In real life cheaters are forgiven quite often because their partner still loves them. I don't see how this is any different. If their relationship was more toxic, I would see a reason for the huge uproar, in fact, this is a much better ending compared to a lot of the cheating plots out there.
And yes, it's extremely annoying to find a flood of angry comments about hating the cheating seme/uke.

Thank you for taking the time to write such an intelligent and well written reply. If a story is well written, has appealing art and the reader is happy to have read it - Can anyone ask for more from a mangaka? I think the entire premise of the plot was to show Kei's growth from immature, insecure cheater to faithful, loving partner through the eyes of the one who loved him the most. The mangaka did a beautiful job here.

My opinion on cheating is a little different.

My dad cheated on my mom, for the simple reason that he was horny. My mom had migraine headaches (a lot of them) - and so for my immature father, she was "No sex/no Fun" so he went out to get his fun while she was at home with three young kids and was very ill to boot. (he also passed on STDs to my mom)

My cousin's wife cheated with his boss, neglected their children and then got pregnant and had the audacity to claim it was 'his' fault (not sure on the logic in that one)

And a good friend had just gotten married, then found out 6 months later that her husband was cheating on her ... they should have still been in a glowy phase of their marriage.

They are all symptoms of a bigger problem, but if you cannot work out your problems, perhaps the relationship is just not working and should be dissolved prior to cheating? I don't know - but if you commit to someone, the onus is on both partners to make an effort first, then call it quits before you start trying to hurt each other that way, is it not?

I don't mind it being used as a plot device in fiction, but sometimes it just seems to resolve too easily. Those are just my thoughts on the matter. Sorry for the essay! *winks*

Exactly! I don't like how the last chapter was received. It boggles my mind how the plot and character development went (seemingly) unnoticed. I cried with Megumu throughout the last part because it was so heartbreaking to see him in so much pain. Asou-sensei captured a great love story. I think it's awesome how sensei was able to make the readers respond strongly (even if it's negative). It only proves to illustrate how great the plot is.

OMG Exactly! Readers with their knickers in a twist over such a common plot device, totally missed the most important aspect of the story! I have ALWAYS said, the mark of a great mangaka is when they can bring out strong emotion in their readers. But in this case, all the readers wasted their emotion on a plot device. This is not the mangaka's fault, it's the readers.

Personally, I don't mind that the problems are resolved easily. The plot develops in 1 chapter. I think the plot was well developed for a 1 chapter storyline, and personally, I love stories with happy endings.

Everyone has their own take on cheating. I agree with Mameiha that you shouldn't take it too personally. Mameiha's opinion is based solely on her experience, so of course your views on cheating would differ.

It's a shame that a lot of readers don't understand (or can't find appreciation) for this aspect though.

Please don't apologize. Your comment was well written and conveyed your thoughts, opinions and reasons beautifully. I'm sad that you had to witness so much heartbreak. That must have been rough. I absolutely understand where your opinions were borne.

I also see in each of your related anecdotes a prior problem-waiting-to-happen for each couple. Please understand, I'm not, in any way, saying those problems justify cheating. They don't. Rather, they are the core reason the cheating occurred. Had each couple had immediately examined the core problem, been able to forgive the trespass and worked on fixing the core problem together - the relationship might have survived and thrived.

The toughest part for most people is in "forgiving the trespass". I believe that is due to the severe intolerance in which cheating is viewed. Look at the comments for this manga alone. Cheating is seen as an "unforgivable sin", not as a symptom of a bigger problem. You can't cure a cold until you bring the fever under control - IOW You can't fix the bigger problem until you can get past the cheating.

You mention dissolving the relationship before the cheating starts. Maybe, but not all core problems revolve around the relationship. For instance, take your first story's situation. First, let's take your parents out of the equation. John and Jane are married, Jane is sick and sex is painful. John cheats on Jane. Why? What's the "core problem"? Is it "no sex=no fun" or does John feel helpless because he can't do anything to help his wife feel good, which breeds insecurity that can only be assuaged when he is making someone else feel good? See what I mean here by "core problem"? The deeper issue is John's insecurity. It has little to do with John and Jane's relationship. Forgive John, fix his insecurity, he stops cheating, relationship is now at a salvageable point. Now they can find a way to satisfy both their emotional and sexual needs to salvage the relationship fully. But it ALL starts with "forgiving". *wink*

I don't want to make you or others read a novel, so I'll stop here. However, if you want to continue our conversation, please feel free to mail me here. Your ability to convey your thoughts eloquently makes me look forward to talking with you again. Thank you again for your reply and for allowing me to share my thoughts with you. (⌒▽⌒)

Oh for sure - everyone brings their own experiences/triggers to a story when they read it. My personal pet peeve is this one, but it does not make me rant and get angry with the plot. I read this a long while ago and don't remember the story all that well, but I feel that if things resolve too easily in real life, then perhaps things have only been resolved on the surface and problems can brew up again. I tend to want to apply that to fiction as well because of personal experience, so I do sometimes question motivations, but still enjoy the read - regardless of the outcome.

Preaching to the choir on that one, sister! I couldn't agree more.

Forgive me, I misinterpreted what you were saying. I agree with what you're saying completely.

Nothing to forgive, we were all just expressing opinions in a calm and rational fashion

Although we do get it's a work of fiction we can't help getting involved with the characters and that's why we cry and laugh with some stories. Having said that, I must admit this story didn't do that for me. Not because it wasn't good but I'm kinda of a tough cookie. It was interesting how all three stories showed different approaches on cheating.
The first one he didn't actually loved the senpai to be badly hurt for the betrayal. He admits he admired him but that's all.
The second one implies that the fault is in the cheating guy and that's why the other guy decided to end their relationship. It also shows that he is able to face reality and that he has some selfesteem. Which in my opinion serves as a contrast to the last story.
The last story (and the one I'm assuming everyone is so tighted up in) shows a couple where the situation is both of the involved parties fault. Sure, the Kei was a cheating bastard. But the other idiot gave him one last chance too many. And the friend sure didn't help in the end on pushing him back when he said he didn't want to get back. Even if it was just on a whim. If I were his friend I would have took that opportunity and tie him to a pole until he gives up on that SOB.
After reading it a second time I realized that Megumu had some issues with himself. I think he forced himself into staying into that relationship only because Kei was the only one to be willing to have a real relationship with him and so he thought he was the only chance to have a meaningful relationship.
What I don't get in this whole story is why if Kei was doing the cheating thing out of insecurity and sadist tendencies would he get involved in a one night stand with someone who he knows is looking for more. Early in the manga Megumu says that Kei looks for partners that are willing to be just a one time fling. And then instead of going after Megumu he goes after the he attacker. Yeah. That's a no deal for me. As it should have been for the friend if he cared in anything for Megumu. One thing is to have flings to make him cry but to not care at all when he falls down the stairs? GTFO man! That to me was an indication that their relationship was changing or that there was no love anymore and that those flings have turned on nto something else rather than him testing Megumu's love.

Once again, you've inspired me to re-read a manga. LOL

I can't disagree with what you've said here about the first two stories. Our opinions differ on the third. I think Kei went after Natsumi for two reasons: 1. He was ashamed of himself for not catching Megumu and for bringing this terrible situation about in the first place, so he ran away more than he ran after Natsumi. 2. If Kei didn't immediately set things right with Natsumi, Megumu could be injured again at Natsumi's hands.
I don't think Kei's feelings for Megumu have diminished. In fact, I think they've gotten stronger because of this last incident. This story shows clearly, how important it is to express our hurt feelings and insecurities, as well as our love for our partners. When Megumu is unfazed by Kei's betrayals, Kei feels less and less secure in the relationship. Kei enjoys seeing Megumu cry, not out of sadism, but because it confirms Megumu's feelings for Kei. Definitely NOT a healthy way to handle a relationship, but that is irrelevant. Now that Megumu realizes that he won't be "hated" or abandoned when he speaks out selfishly, Kei will get more confirmation of Megumu's feelings and feel more secure in the relationship. Thus, reducing his need to cheat and improving their relationship.

My original comment was posted out of frustration that readers had completely overlooked the "morals of the stories" in their blind rage over the cheating. These were well written stories with lessons worth learning in them. Story #1 showed that "settling" for someone and "admiration" does not equate to "love". Story #2 showed that when you go looking for love, you will miss over it in your drive to find it. If we stop, love will find us. Story #3 showed that partners must show their anger, selfishness, jealousy and fears, as well as their patience, happiness and love. Confiding all of our feelings in our partner builds a strong, healthy and happy relationship. Withholding our "negative" feelings only promotes insecurities in both partners.
Totally overlooking these ideas because the plots revolved around cheating, defeats the purpose of the stories. If all a reader took away from this manga is that "so-and-so" was a cheating bastard, the story was wasted on a shallow, immature reader - in my opinion. Even an "escapist reader" like myself has to read beyond superficial plot devices.

With each new post, your writing improves by leaps and bounds. (⌒▽⌒)
I always enjoy seeing your comments and always look forward to the stimulating conversations they provide.

But I don't think Kei's insecurities cones from unconfirmed feelings from Megumu. Megumu cries, he forgives him, he shares everything with him and he doesn't cheat (even when Megumu used to be like him). I think his insecurity comes from his unemployment. As he said that to his friend as a reason for his cheating. And it's like with his cheating the only thing he's achieving is push Megumu away and push his wife insecurities to him.
On the other things I agree with you. Is the same as when I get angry at people not being able to see past a "cute" story and analyse it further or to see it's faults.
And the Natsuki's part. I took it from my point of view. I mean, can't he come see that I'm free ne before exacting revenge upon my attacker? (Yes! That is what I demand from my lover protect my honor spare no one mwa hahaha JK)
He knew Natsuki's so I'll suppose that he has ways of getting in contact. Or just spare a few seconds to ask and say I'll be back instead of FUCKING CHASING THE MAN YOU CHEATED ME WITH! Wouldn't that give me the wrong impression? But that would be my reaction. And maybe as you said he wanted to stop Natsuki's from going further and in the shock he didn't stop to think that Megumu might be hurt.
What I still don't understand is why on earth would he chose Natsuki to cheat on Megumu when he knew Natsuki's feelings and he had previously chosen his partners as not the serious type.
I also look forward to your comments. Is really nice having someone who doesn't jump on a defensive stance to talk to! (((o(*ﾟ▽ﾟ*)o)))