Hek

TJ is obsessed with Ian. Jo is obsessed with Ian. There's a reason why Ian can't move forward from his past (TJ). Love is subjective here because you need to see who's actually benefiting from this "love". In that way you can actually see from Ian's pov.

actually the reason they couldn't be together was shown it's because tj chose to stay with the gang instead of leaving with ian, not bc ian came to realise they're not good for each other (which they are very toxic to each other). but ian wanted tj to leave with him, and when he didn't ian realised that tj didn't need him as much as ian needed him and so there ian's love started fading.

they weren't toxic to each other back when they were in the gang when they were in love, but it only became this unhealthy when ian left and tj chose to prioritize the gang over ian, which is why they couldn't be together. then they started this cycle of seeing each other but still not letting go, leaving the door halfway open and never shutting it completely. that's when it wasn't good for either of them. but you're very right about the black and white idea everyone has of "ian is good, tj is bad, joe is good". like no bruh they're all morally grey characters that's what doyak is trying to show us.

yeah i agree I don't think their love started as toxic just that its unhealthy now.
and so true i feel like doyaks writing is wasted on some people. they need to stop trying to pick a side and just enjoy the dynamic between the 3.
i personally don't like tj but to reduce him to just the "toxic controlling bf/second lead" stereotype is dumb, he's clearly got more brain cells than that. and despite his obsession he respects Ian's choices even if it's hard for him to accept it.

I think both couples have love but it's actually subjective. I mean TJ is controlling and that's a fact. His obsession made him to control Ian and keep him by his side. Now what will Jo do since he's already showing a sign of obsession also? I'm surprised how guys still haven't figured out the similarity between TJ and Jo. Both of them are facing the same situations.

you're so right this story has so much detail and effort put into it just for people to reduce it to "omg love triangle mafia red flag vs innocent green flag" like?? and yes true it's been shown that tj isn't a controlling crazy psycho lover who'll do anything to have ian, he still seems sane no matter the shitty choices he's done and he's started to let go recently and cut ian off completely which is for the best i hope they both get better

yes for sure i think tj and joe are different sides of the same coin and even ian has noticed it in season 1, when he was looking at joe and thought "this man has the same obsessive look that tj had".

I need to smooch your brain because you took my words right out my mouth about Ian and TJ’s love coming out of hardship and need of connection. I would also like to add that TJ is definitely a morally grey character difficult to sympathize with, but one thing that really tugs at my heart is that at his core he’s afraid of losing the sense of “familiarity” of what grounds him in difficult situations; Ian.

I think TJ’s affinity towards Ian is something that can’t be summed up simply. They’re stuck in limbo between being lovers and brothers.

I like this explanation. Makes so much sense. Honestly, you can tell Ian and TJ really are into each other it's just that their life is heading in different directions and as much as they want each other and want to love and be with each other TJ's obligation to the gang and Ian not wanting to be a part of it, there's bound to be hiccups. Sure if They could compromise it would be nice but the life of a gangster isn't a compromise and Ian's safety would be on the line of he stayed but honestly I think neither wants to let go, they go right back to each other and as you said leaving the door ajar can only do so much the back and forth is What's not healthy. They can't really commit as much as they would like to. Ian doesn't want uncertainty nor does he want to continue living the life of a gangster and TJ can't seem to break away because of his sense of duty to take care of the gang which was the dying wish of his friend and boss. So it sucks. But honestly Joseph is obsessed sorta. Don't trust a Joseph honestly

you get ittt !!!! everyone have different interpretation of their relationship but this is what felt right to me.
had they met under different circumstances they could have still fell in love but this specific mutual obsession and dependency comes from shared trauma esp in their teen years

I really appreciate this take.

Long ramble ahead

TLDR; I relate to TJ to the point where I can see myself in him, except the fact that he has gone down the darker path rather than one of improvement. I strongly sympathise with him, and his development has made my heart ache.

Full Take;

I’m someone whose been through some rough shit, nothing as crazy as gang shit of course, but I definitely think my case is pretty rare. That trauma has affected me in many ways growing up and I realised early on that I suffer from obsession due to the lack of control I had when I was young.

I was also manipulated in my first two committed relationships, and so in my following ones I tended to be possessive and overbearing, because if I don’t have the “upper hand” I’ll get burned.

In my current one I have worked a lot on myself, and my boyfriend has been so insanely supportive of my improvement, and the best thing for my in my entire life. Pushed me to get therapy and really challenged my flaws.

If it wasn’t for him, I could have been a lot like TJ, not in such a characterised way of course, but possessive, scared of losing what you hold dear to the point of being toxic to keep it, having to be the dominant aggressive one, and keeping yourself locked behind steel doors so you never get hurt.

In the end though, you’re always hurting. You are the result of your trauma, and it’s made you into a broken man. Some can empathise with that, but once you’ve gone too far, over stepped, were too aggressive, there’s little to feel sorry for.

But I can’t help but feel sorry for him. I really and truly get him, and it sucks. Seeing someone I can in part relate to sink lower and lower. Stuck in a loop that is fucking hard to escape. Its like you don’t know any better, and for those who haven’t gone through it, they don’t think its so. They can’t understand. I can though. I could see how my life could have easily went to a “point of no return” state, and my entire world view would have became apathetic, nihilistic, and dull.

TJ is toxic. He’s an asshole, he’s manipulative, possessive, and cold. But he’s like that because he’s trying to defend himself. We’ve seen him be sweet and caring, we’ve seen that he really and truly loves Ian, and losing the one thing he actually cares for is like losing himself. It’s tearing him apart, but he can’t also leave his life behind. He knows nothing else. So he hardens, and he becomes malicious, because that’s the only way he sees how he can keep what matters to him. It’s heart breaking.

Obviously, I don’t excuse any of his actions with what I say here. I don’t excuse the times I was an asshole in my past, trying to demand this or that from my past partners because I felt scared, pushing the effect my traumas had on me onto them. I caused them more stress in the end, TJ is doing the same. The only way forward is to pull yourself up and try with all your might to change, even if it feels like stepping into open air. Even if that’s even more scary.

I really hope TJ can have a happy ending. I can’t know for sure, but he means a lot to me. If he does something worse, I may lose my sympathy because my morals have become quite strong, but with how it’s going, he feels like a broken lost man whose about to have nothing left to him but the bloody job he has. Like he’s doomed to fail.

So truly, he is a grey character. One who has reasons for his ways, and can be hard to understand, but you can tell is not inherently evil. Not yet at least.

yess i agree with you everything you said is so right and i'm glad people can see their relationship is difficult due to both of them and not just tj by himself. they're in a sad position tbh they can't ever be together unless they actually somehow sit down and find a compromise but that's unlikely it doesn't seem realistic...

thank you for sharing this. tj is so different that alot of people cant sympathize with him so to hear from someone who's been in that position is really eye opening. and i agree that tj isnt irredeemably evil(yet). if he was truly that selfish he wouldn't have cut ian off or left jo alone. or even apologized. he def has room for growth if given the time and space.

i hope the author does justice to this character!! and im happy that you have healed and found happiness

I appreciate your kind words so much. I agree wholeheartedly as well. I see in a lot of these BLs how characters like TJ become the ultimate and irredeemable villian, but at the very end they give you a sob story despite the character having already done unforgivable things, or, the bad guy just dies (which is good if theyre irredeemable, but alas)

I hope so very much that TJ can be saved before that. The author already has made him so complex, deep, and articulated without having him have done anything particularly harmful. At the end of the day this is their story, and how they develop him and have him planned to be is theirs alone. I still hope it’s a path of betterment though. I have faith the author will be able to write him well no matter what they do, given how well the story has gone so far, and even if he becomes a horrible person. But it’s like watching someone you know deeper than others degrade into something horrible while being unable to stop it.

He deserves a new start, and I feel he deserves unconditional love (from someone other than Ian) at least with how he is now. He’s a deeply sentimental person, that’s why Ian has such an effect on him, because he’s drawn to comfort, intimacy, and love. He will need a LOT of work. Work that will force him to let go of his pride, his position of absolute control, and of doing things the “dirty” way. That’s not easy. For him, it probably would be a fight that feels impossible to win. But I hope so badly that he takes it on. I really want to see him happy. That comes from a very selfish part of me of course, but still. That type of character development, especially with a character that feels so personal, is unlike much else.

Thank you again for your time and kind words- It truly means a lot, and I do very much enjoy indulging in these more sentimental conversations. I am a huge rambler haha. But I feel so honoured to have my perspective be of use. We shall see how things go. Best of wishes to you man.

Hey, thanks for sharing your story it really resonates. People are so quick to judge but they don't really look at the bigger picture. Especially when you try to rationalize the behavior of someone who's done wrong. Not a lot of people really take the time to think about what they might have gone through to reach this point and it's so realistic to what people with such hurt and trauma go through today. Some don't get the support they should have gotten. I'm glad you found someone who took the time to see past your trauma, your flaws, your insecurities and actually saw you and wanted to help in making you feel safer and accepted as well as encourage you to seek the help you should have gotten. Ngl sometimes I can't emphatize when someone decides to go too far on numerous occasions. I can't emphathize sometimes when their irredeemable. But when honestly people need to get over the surface cause people are shallow like that. I try to at least peel back the layers and know for sure what's his or her story is before I make my decision and even if it's hard to read I still want to read so I know what happens and reflect on the situation. Honestly as I said I can't say I don't dislike certain characters but if I can understand their backstory and what the author is aiming for and also seeing the quality of the characters development I can definitely say for myself that it helps with understanding where the characters are coming from. But reigning in the topic, again thank you for sharing. It's well appreciated and hope that you continue to do what's best for you.