This one was cute. I know people are working hard to translate the next chapter because we all want to see the elevator seen. Thank you!
Based on a AP Psychology level of knowledge (that is to say, a little bit), I would say that Ten Count takes a rather Freudian approach to mental disorders (with a Yaoi twist). Of course, this is not how most modern professionals would approach it, but it makes for good drama. In classic Freudian theory, little boys all fall in love with their mothers because humans are all driven by sex and death. (Others may have said we have a drive for life, but Freud is a guy, and an old Austrian one at that, so he thinks we all want to die, deep down--but we want to have a lot of sex first). Now, the little boy lusts for mom, but is scared of Dad. Since the child can't compete with the father physically, he pushed the lust and anxiety into his subconscious, where it stews and causes all sorts of problems down the road, especial if the child becomes fixated on this stage and has a complex.
So in the Yaoi version, a gay child has "lust" (or drives) directed at his father, though he is not old enough to understand it. The girl gives him an object lesson about how he can never compete with the pussy, and calls him disgusting. This causes much anxiety, and the child pushes the cause of feelings in to his subconscious, keeping the idea that he is disgusting and can infect others with his filth. In a universe where this is the cause of neurological disorders, the cure would be to drag the original memories out of the subconscious and have the adult deal with all the crap. The list of ten things has to do this, or it won't have much effect (because we are not in a behavioral world where desensitization works). The attraction to a man who is also attracted to him is the perfect springboard for such a cure. That and in Yaoi sex cures everything.
Apart from that the actual abject lesson was that male ejaculation is shameful and dirty, IAWTC. Shirotani doesn't display insecurity or hostility around women as a result of 'defeat by pussy'. He has it rewired that his natural automatic physical responses are unclean.
I think you are right. Maybe he girl intended for him to see he couldn't compete with pussy, but he was too focused on the weird thing happening with his body, and then the fact that it was "disgusting". Pussy was not that much of a factor for him.
Well, it's a very pat take on the situation. We are analyzing this as if this man's reactions to his past have a rational correlation, and mental illness isn't rational, no matter how much Freud tried to smooth it out and make it seem so.
Well, I think Freud had it *all* wrong--personally I believe mental disorders and conditions are biological and behavioral, but this is fiction.
:)
It wouldn't be much of a story if they wrote him a prescription and had him work at shaping a specific set of behaviors, now would it?
It could be. Or it could be another attempt to shoe-horn mental illness into a rational framework. People are addicted to things that make sense. Maybe there are limits to those because our perception itself is limited.
You just missed a huge point in your Freudian analogy, first Shirotani did not had a mother to get attached to and in that case his attachment went to the person who took care of him, his father. Second given the case that situation of attachment does not make a child gay, so Shirotani was a normal, healthy boy that did not lust after his father. Third what Shirotani feared the most was to loose the person his world revolved around (his father) to a girl (so he saw the girl as competition for his father affection).
He is a normal, healthy gay child. Freud says *everyone* is sexually attracted to at least one parent before learning to suppress that drive. In his theory, straight children are sexually attracted the opposite-sex parent, so it would follow gay children would be sexually attracted to the same-sex parent and bi kids would be attracted to both. It's Freud's theory, not mine. There is nothing unhealthy about being gay or bi, so the only problem is the complex he develops after suppressing this incident.
Competing with another child for a parent's attention is more like sibling rivalry, but I don't see that as an issue here. It's more a suppression of a sexual response he doesn't understand coupled with the idea that his sexuality is "disgusting".
BTW, nothing makes anyone gay. We are born with the proclivity to be gay, straight, bi, pan, ace or whatever. It's a combination of hormones and DNA. We are what we are--Yaoi logic notwitstanding.
I believe there is an explanation for everything, but there is a lot science does not understand yet. There was a time disease was considered to be the work of demons, but now we have learned a lot more about germs and viruses. We are just starting to understand neurotransmitters and how biology interacts with environmental factors. In time, we will learn how to better understand and treat such conditions. The reason it seems illogical now is because we do not yet have all the information we need in order to make sense of it.
That being said, I think Freud was wrong, but influential--and this is a story.
I don't believe in explanations for everything, or at least in the sort of omniscience that gives us *accurate* explanations for everything, as much as I approve of science. If you must know, it's Euripede's fault for writing the most howling apologism for Helen of Troy's faithlessness ever, but whether science or behaviourism ever finds solutions or cures for mental illness (and I hope they do, since it causes so much suffering), we need to find ways to live with the mentally ill. For until those cures are found, they will continue to operate outside the realm of sense.
"in yaoi sex cures everything"
Hahaha! AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
I agree with EVERYTHING you've said in this entire thread. I also believe Shirotani was gay (even at 11- the age of a 5th grader). Our sexual orientation is determined before birth (DNA). It can be "recognized" by the person as early as 6 years old. They will know they are "different" from others of their gender, but won't know why, or what it is that makes them different. I don't think the incident with the girl having sex with his Dad would cause misogyny, but I do think it would give him an inferiority complex around women.
This entire segment of the plot follows Freudian theory to the letter. I'm sure it was written based on his theories. We've come a long way since Freud's time and have learned that, sometimes "a cigar is just a cigar".
Thanks. Not everyone enjoys analyzing the story so much, but I am kind of weird that way. :) I like that the story raises so many issues. It's kind of deep for a yaoi--even if it does follow yoai logic about many things.
I loved psych and anatomy in college. So, I'm often on here explaining either the mechanics of sex of the psychology of characters. LOL I agree, this manga is one of the best in the "psychological" category. Yaoi logic must always prevail in yaoi! LOL
If you were trying to find a new mother for your child, do you look for things like a nurturing personality, emotional maturity, and general competence, or would you think "What my kid needs most is someone underage, selfish and beautiful that his friend will want to fuck when he is older"?
Now that we have Chapter 22 in English (thank you, thank you, thank you!), I am more annoyed with his dad than ever. How could any sane human not notice how his affair with a student is affecting his kid? Who does that?
Just for fun, I looked up the meaning of some names. I can’t decide whether they are ironic or not.
Kouhei (Karino): Justice, fairness and equality
Yuuya (Azusa): Wealthy one.
Atsumu: To gather, to congregate
Natsuki (Kuze): This is a pain in the butt, because it depends on the kanji. I started to go through the raws, but I simply do not have the skill to spot which kanji is his first name. Possibilities include: summer ____ [rare/life/hope/yearning…etc.], greens, moon, rich beautiful moon, and reminisce. Without knowing why, I’m guessing he’s hope and yearning.
Tatsumi: Another hard one. Could be imperial dragon or snake. Could be “accomplished”. Could be a lot of things.
I stopped there, because the names may not mean anything at all. I find it funny though.
omg I did the same thing XD but I didn't find the meaning of Karino. I like the meaning of azusa....it's ironic though,both for karino and azusa as characters >.>
Hey, we have to do something to entertain ourselves. I noticed that Atsumu is the only one I think of by his first name, Is it just me, or do the characters in the manga do that too?
I've noticed that too. In general, Japanese people will address people by their last name if they are anything but good friends.
I found this online:
Japanese, in general, has a lot of emphasis placed on politeness, and showing proper respect. It is possible to insult someone simply using the wrong form of address - which is why many anime series use this as a comedy device.
In general, first names are used in the following situations:
* Lovers, girlfriend/boyfriend, S.O - these are people who are close, and on an equal "level".
* Younger family members, like your little sister or brother. They, however, would address you as "older sister/brother".
* Close friends - we're talking "BFF" type of friends here.
Otherwise, it's very common to use people's last name - even if they're otherwise rather close. Switching from last name to first name can denote a large step forward in the relationship between those two characters in terms of familiarity. Think of the phrase "Mr. Thompson is my father's name. Just call me Joe." as a loose equivalent in English.
So Tatsumi is probably a close friend to Karino but not a bother because he called him by the first name.
Also it's Kuze that's always calling Atsumu by his first name--that's why I do it. Atsumu still calls Kuse by his last name though.
Oh, and in chapter 8, Azusa switched from "Kusakbe" to "Atsumu" when he puts his arms around Atsumu and tells him to "come here" (or whatever your translation says). Azusa doesn't do that with Karino--not that Karino would ask him to use his first name.
I think he did it to make Karino jealous...and he did. Also,Kuze calls kusakabe by his own name as way of manipulation,but kusakabe never called him by his first name, Karino is the King and Azusa is the target,it would be out of place (considering the game),also Karino wants to control Azusa and be above him...so it makes sense this way,for now of course XD
Wow you even search through the Kanji to find their name meaning! Indeed Karino & Azusa meaning are ironic. Maybe Yuuya mom gave him name Yuuya in hope that Yuuya will be great wealthy in the future. His mom said that he is the fastest at running and always had good grade. Don't know if yuuya still has good grade after high school
LOL I tried--but I don't know enough about kanji to really do that. I go by what I find on the Interent.
I think you are right--Azusa's mom wanted him to be wealthy and Karino's dad wanted him to be a government minister (so "fairness" and "justice" sounded good).
I've also been worried about Azusa's grades. It wouldn't be out of character for Karino to completely destroy Azusa's future even if it is for a game.
I hope Azusa doesn't fall in love with Karino. Even in ch 3 & 4 he almost fall for him. I hope to see him to has great future. My gawd his life with his mom is just miserably sad
Well, I feel for people who still ship Karino and Asuza, and I admit that I started shipping him with Atsumu only because I think it would serve both semes right if they ukes got together and really turned the tables.
I guess right now I am more of an Azusa fan than I am any kind of a shipper. That's odd, because usually I ship characters the author isn't even thinking about having in a romance. I'm always looking for secret slash cues. This is a Yaoi full of MM sex, and all I can think about is how I want Azusa to do better.
Yup. I m totally azusa fans. I hope he has happy life inside & outside school.
I hope he can has a normal relationship with atsumu whether it's as good friend or as couple. I just hope azusa being happy.
Also, it will be good if Karino can be fall in love to azusa but azusa doesn't love him back and azusa live his life in better way than he is now. You got Serve karino!! Seme should get some psychological punishment.
Does anyone know the name of the guy with the round glasses who helped Karino get the king card? He was originally a Geek who got mad when Azusa fouled him, and he threw water on Azusa when the cards changed. He pops up a lot in the background and some people think he's part of a third couple. I hope there isn't a third couple, because I want the story to shift back to Azusa, but I am curious if anyone knows anything.
I don't know his name,but if the next chapter is about another couple I'll flip! I think the third couple(if there's one) will have only 1 chapter which may be an extra. I'd like Tatsumi(karino's friend) to be the uke and the guy you mentioned as the seme,they seem cute. But like I said,I want azusaxkarino,I've waited months ç.ç It can't end like that,with a third couple and an extra(is too short) inside the game that shows what happens between the main couple,if that happens I think I may have a heart attack XDXD
His name is mizubata (=・ω・=)
He doesn't have a name since his name was never mentioned in the manga before. Since he appears only in the background leads me to think he is more of a side character than an actual protagonist but i could be wrong. He appeared in the story more times than most side characters /and had more lines but yet his name was never muttered in the story. Kinda weird for a character who might be big in the future not to have a name. Also I do believe their might be a possibility for a third couple to happen since the cover of this manga has 6 characters. One of those mysterious characters in the cover has a similar hair style to glasses dude (You might have just predicted the future for this manga)
Never mind he actually has a name.. How the heck did i miss his name? I need to go back to this story and read more carefully...
I think his name is mentioned in chapter three when karino asks him to cover up his and azusa's absence and give the teacher an excuse.
No wonder i didn't pay attention to his name, i read that chapter fast and didn't bother figuring out who was Mizubata. I probably didn't think his name was important so it must have entered and left my brain in a matter of seconds. And here i was so sure he was nameless. :3
Thank you. I like the suggestion that all he gets is an extra. :)
I missed it too--and I have reread. I just have my Azusa goggles on. Mizubata is often shown with a blond guy (I am pretty sure he is never named though). For example, they are playing baseball indoors in one part. (Seriously, are there any teachers at this school?)
That would be a good pairing, but I keep seeing Mizubata with a blond guy (who may also be on the cover as a third couple). Then again, with the way the delinquents change appearance, you never know who is who. I would really like to know more about Tatsumi and how he plays into all this.
The school is no longer a place to learn and the teachers have been non existing in the whole manga, pretty sure their is only one teacher in that school. (If their is more teachers they sure go home quite fast.) Seriously how do people even miss the whole almost being rape in the courtyard/a bathroom with the door open. Someone trowing water at you and non stop sex in the nurse office/empty classrooms.
I have decided that Japanese schools are usually run by the student counsel or another student organization (which tends to have more authority than the government). Also, everyone has sex in the nurse's office. The school often employes a nurse just to have sex with students. Manga has taught me a lot about Japanese culture. ; )
Am I the only one who noticed that on page 34 Azusa has a glow-in-the-dark pecker?
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/caste_heaven/bt/mi_chapter-8/pg-34/
This is true in both versions, even though the newer one is darker and has more shading. If I were Karino, I'd be less impressed with the fact that Azusa came, and more concerned with his penis turning into a light saber.
Still, it's better than those damned bunnies.
LoL
The mangaka's thoughts are interesting.
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/traumatic_phantasm/sa/sa-c001/37/
Am I sick for laughing at that?
Right? Not enough mob rape when the whole thing was mob rape? I'm not sure there's anything much she can add at this point, lol.
If we define Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) as:
"A. Disregard for and violation of others rights since age 15, as indicated by one of the seven sub features:
1. Failure to obey laws and norms by engaging in behavior which results in criminal arrest, or would warrant criminal arrest
2. Lying, deception, and manipulation, for profit tor self-amusement,
3. Impulsive behavior
4. Irritability and aggression, manifested as frequently assaults others, or engages in fighting
5 Blatantly disregards safety of self and others,
6 A pattern of irresponsibility and
7. Lack of remorse for actions (American Psychiatric Association, 2013)"
http://www.theravive.com/therapedia/Antisocial-Personality-Disorder-DSM--5-301.7-%28F60.2%29
Do you think the Sodou's behavior towards both Asami and Aki could qualify? Or do you think that was a single episode, and the loyalty the Aya/Mayu girl has shows he has more empathy and real connection to others than a person with ASPD could achieve?
Interesting question and to be honest, I'm not sure. But sinde ASPD includes the element of psychopathy or sociopathy, one may also add: "psychopathy as not having a sense of empathy or morality, but sociopathy as only differing in sense of right and wrong from the average person". I would lean towards sociopathy. I think, Sodou feels he is in the right. But I'm sure there's a case to be made for the other.
And the other thing I'm not sure about is: How does the fact that Sodou has - tragically - fallen in love with Asami fit into this? With psychopathy the root of someone's behaviour is in his psyche, with sociopathy it's in the situation or circumstance. So is he a socipath who happens to be tragically crossed with love? Has he BECOME a sociopath BECAUSE he is tragically crossed with love? Him falling in love makes me tend towards sociopath also, because isn't the psychopath incapable of love?
I have to admit, he baffles me and I couldn't say. But maybe, at the end of the day, he's just a poor bastard who had the bad fortune of falling in love with Asami and his sanity caved in because of it...
Okay, my head is hurting now, lol!
I agree with you that on a continuum, he'd be on the sociopath side (and fairly "light" for a sociopath). I think his "love" for Asami is a fixation, but it is all about how Sudou feels. He has no problem lying to Asami or stealing from him. He even wants to make Asami suffer by killing Aki. While Sudou calls it love, I think it is more like a fixation--Sudou wants to be by someone rich and powerful and be rich and powerful, but he doesn't want to give any loyalty. Maybe he fundamentally cannot form real intimate relationships because he lacks empathy?
All good points, Anoni Grrl, and as I said earlier, it baffles me. I honestly can't say. But you raised a fascinating question for sure. I wonder if even sensei herself has thought this through on such a psychological level. :) Then again, all her characters are somewhat messed up, so I guess: Yes, she probably has. :D Also interesting thought about the "rich and powerful" aspect. Does Sudou "love" Asami or does he "love" what Asami represents? Mmh, I think I will have to read that chapter again some time soon. ;)
This is so interesting to me. These types of classifications were used to identify the most extreme forms of human behavior, People who existed outside the bell curve of expected behavior patterns. That might lead to them doing bad deeds, ex. Hitler. they were never meant to explain every day huamn behavior like simple hatred or jelousy. Being a one of the above is rare( I hope) you are born this way with out a feeling of empathy for others(sociopath) you don;t care because you don't have those feelings, period. Terrible abuse can a cause these conditions. As for ASPD diag. There are to many of these on the books that over lap and don't make any sense. It is hard to say without his full background. In closing in the underworld, this may be expected behavior. Guns, betrayal, violence, may be how they solve their problems. It would then be considered their norm , no? after all they are at war.
See that's the rub--if it's "normal" for their subculture, a person can have empathy and feelings an still act in cruel and inhumane ways. Only some of them have a disorder (or none) --and some people with such a disorder may never be as violent because they may just keep to themselves and do not act out as much. I thought of this because of the earlier conversation about Asami, and I thought maybe Sudou had more traits than Asami--but we don't really know if any of them consistently act that way outside of a "underworld" context.
Since we do not know the juvenile history, I'm not sure if any of the characters have the personality disorder, but to me, Yuri is somebody that I would suspect. As far as Sudou goes, he has anti-social behavior that meets the DSM criteria. I don't think he's in love with Asami. I feel that Asami is a tool that he can use for self-gain, that's why he was willing to kill Akihito, knowing that it would kill Asami inside. In fact, he states he would get pleasure by watching Asami in despair searching for Akihito. Sudou is one twisted person.