Done.

It would be an interesting angle. If removing Karino made the teacher think he could have Azusa, and removing Karino made Senzaki think he could keep Tatsumi, they could work together. It would make more sense than an adult trying to join the game like a student. Karino would have no reason to distrust the teacher, so if the teacher situation up and Senzaki hit Karino from behind, things could get grim.

Then I wonder what Azusa would do? Certainly not the teacher.

Even though for a teacher to join the game and unite with a delinquent would be going too far, but as I said anything is possible, and maybe the reason for Azusa not to join the "coalition" would be the fact that unlike Senzaki who has no feels for Azusa, that crazy teacher is into him, which won't make Azusa's life any easier. I'm sure Azusa would prefer evil Karino with all his kinks, than that "caring and kind" teacher.

PS But we know that none of our ideas will actually take place, sensei will once again come up with something jaw-dropping and fool us :)

In her book Ogawa says that she tried to make Karino devilish and evil. The main rule of any fiction is that evil either should be punished or it should stop being evil. I wonder which way sensei will choose? Will she even play by that rule, she likes to make her own rules :)

BTW, some people think that "not ordinary" and "not normal" is the same. But it's not. Even though those words are close, but while "not ordinary" is one step to "extraordinary" (which has positive meaning), "not normal" is one step from "abnormal" (which has negative meaning).

You really think Kuze is easy to manipulate? Of all people I would have never thought that you, who read the story with so much attention and passion, would have said that.

I think Kuze is usually passive-aggressive and indirect instead of directly confrontational. He's manipulative and cunning--but he also does what Karino says, in part, because he accepts Karino as having more power (even when Karino was not yet king). So Kuze may think it's funny to send Azusa to Karinos' house with homework (which is a sneaky way of taking a swipe at both Karino and Azusa), but Kuze will not stand up to Karino when it comes to protecting Atsumu from Karino. But the choice to stick his dick into his crying lover was all Kuze, so I guess he at least asserted his power over his lover while his lover was being punished by Karino (or being used as a way to tell Azusa that even a "nothing" like Atsumu can do Azusa now if Karino says so).

Agree completely. That's why I say he's not easy to manipulate. He does what's in his interest to do. But he's the most unpredictable of them all - much more than Karino is, and, to me, even scarier than Karino whose aggressiveness is so straight-forward.

Remember when Kuze wanted the King card and Karino said "I'll crush anyone who gets in my way"? Kuze backed off right away, saying "I don't like problems", so as I said, he's not a fighter. And even though he was angry at Atsumu for lying and getting close to Azusa, and THAT was his reason to go for that rape, Karino was the one who gave the orders. When I say "manipulate' I mean "pull the strings", I didn't mean Kuze was against it, though later on he was angry at Karino as if Karino was the only one respocible for what happend.

I don't remember any other scene when Kuze was violent toward Atsumu and gettig off on that, so the reason he did it was because he was angry at Atsumu and because Karino orchestrated that whole thing. If the only reason for Karino to do this was to show that anyone can do Azusa if Karino says so, he wouldn't put an accent on the fact that Azusa couldn't cum with Atsumu, but as soon as Karino touched him, he "went off".

There are plenty of scenes where Kuze is passive-aggressive. If Kuze was angry at the time, it changes nothing. Karino orchestrated it, Kuze went along, and then Kuze added more without Karino telling him to. Whatever rational Kuze may have to make it all Atsumu's fault is just the kind of justification abusers always use--she/he burnt dinner, she/he talks too much, she/he ignores me, she/he lied, or flirted, or is cold: she/he made me do it--but the fact is Kuze doesn't snap and attack strong, powerful Karino when Kuze is upset--Kuze *chooses* a target for his negative emotions and he chooses *the*target--Atsumu. Kuze gets "angry" and rapes sobbing, weak Atsumu when Karino already is already usuing Atsumu. If this is additional "punishment" from Kuze to Atsumu, it's a form of punishment that puts Kuze's dick up Atsumu's ass in a declaration of ownership and control even as Karino is also controlling Atsumu.

I will agree to disagree about Karino's motives until we have more information.

Can you remind me the scenes where Kuze was violent towards Atsumu or somehow showing he likes it that way? Maybe I did forget something, since this is not my favourite couple and all, but as far as I remember, unlike Karino, Kuze was the gentle one.

*If Kuze was angry at the time, it changes nothing*...and the rest of the text -
I've never said otherwise, so I don't really know why you wrote this.

*I will agree to disagree about Karino's motives until we have more information*.

Whaterver happens later, doesn't change what we see in this scene. You suggest that the only reason for Karino to do what he did was to show Azusa that anyone can do him (as if Azusa didn't know), but you dismiss Karino's words completely.

I think initially Karino wanted to punish them since he caught them at the moment when Atsumu was trying to convince Azusa to run, but when Azusa showed some sympathy and asked Karino to let Atsumu go, Karino decided to show Azusa (and to prove it to himself) that as much as Azusa craves for kindness, HE is the only one who can satisfy him. He literally says: "I will show you how to satisfy this guy"
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c008/33.html

*If the only reason for Karino to do this was to show that anyone can do Azusa if Karino says so, he wouldn't put an accent on the fact that Azusa couldn't cum with Atsumu, but as soon as Karino touched him, he "went off"*

I still remember what I thought the first time I saw this scene: "Karino, if I were you I wouldn't be so proud of someone else's dick making my boyfriend that hard" because real pleasure is not only coming, but enduring the game. And maybe Azusa is touched by Atsumu kindness, I mean, he doesn't dislike his little cock for sure, even if we all clearly know that he likes the bastard.

Azusa' s bad taste put aside, let's talk about the psycho, I mean, Kuze. Why does he do what he does. Because he's much more sadistic than Karino. Again, he's subtle and sly, he pretends to be a good guy (even though, he's a genuine bastard too, Atsumu must be completely mind- absent to not realize something so obvious) but he does not "obey" to Karino. I agree he's not a fighter, but not because he's afraid of others… which he's probably not. He's not a fighter because he likes the shadow zone, whereas Karino wants to underline his own power. In the end, who rules the game? Kuze is CH Iago's, only, he lacks any allure. His deeper satisfaction comes from making others seem guilty for his bad actions - in this case, Karino, but he just did what he wanted from the beginning: he annihilated Atsumu.
Atsumu is beyond reproach. Do not tell me he was raped, he had a bunch of fun even if he was uneasy with the situation, and to prove that, he bought that bunch of incredible lies Kuze fed him after. Much easier than admitting "how I liked Azusa's hole, what a shame he belongs to someone else. Should I say it out clear that I want to do it with two guys at once?…"

These guys are really sad. They want an old-style gay orgy, but they have to put on an entire show to make it looks like everyone is someone else's victim. If it goes on like this, Karino will be the heartbroken one in the end (but no one will pity him since sane people want to see him dead, possibly atrociously dead).

Just reading the comments I'm loosing my faith in Senzaki. He's an honest psycho, not a looser like the rest of them. He will give them a closer look and he will decide it's too much of an effort to take his gloves off for them.

Kuze is passive-aggressive, manipulative and abusive, but not necessarily sadistic. It's not violence he needs, but power and control enough to allow him to be abusive every so often (in between the times he sweet talks Atsumu and reels him back in). Here are a few examples:

In chapter one, I think Kuze does more bullying on Azusa's behalf than Azusa himself does:

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/1/f27e427c1d863ae566c7ef5083c53c24.png

Azusa is kind of frowning in the background, but look at Kuze's grin in the next panel.

Starting with Chapter four, Kuze is initially attracted to Atsumu's weakness (rather than his personality or his heart) and manipulates Atsumu, and puts Atsumu in a much higher social rank that Atsuma actually wanted. This is not something Atsumu wants or is happy with--Atsumu wanted to keep his safe prep card--but Kuze forced Atsumu into the spotlight because Kuze enjoyed it, no matter how uncomfortable Atsumu felt. Kuze claims he is a person who likes to take care of "others" but that's BS (see chapter one)--he is only interested in Atsumu, not others , and his "care" comes at a cost.

There is an initial "honeymoon" stage after the seduction, but it comes with red flags. Kuze purposefully creates a situation where he knew Atsumu would likely protect him. Kuze can see how much it upsets Atsumu,, but Kuze smiles as Atsumu cries because Kuze has proven how much control he has over Atsumu, and how much he can get Atsumu to do for him:

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/6/5570889a9e6ff75e414955e3fd4cac15.png

Kuze sees Atsumu getting stronger, and takes steps to stop Atsumu from having other friends or outside support systems:

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/7/60926dae78fb7ad8b6e58d849439e7e3.jpeg

Kuze purposefully isolates Atsumu and tells Atsumu Kuze will think for him.

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/7/8a30b8bb816997c7cbacf43465a01fc4.jpeg

At this point, tensions starts to build. Kuze encourages Atsumu to continue thinking of himself as weak and needing, Kuze, while also playing on Atsumu's fears. Kuze is not supporting Atsumu and encouraging Atsumu to make friends, gain confidence, and follow his conscience. Quiet the opposite--Kuze wants him isolated, afraid, and dependent.

Kuze enjoys seeing Atsumu do things Atsumu thinks of as bad. Look at the incident with the queen. Kuze is smooth enough to have told her right away that he thought Karino had wanted her--but he waits. He lets Atsumu feel afraid and jealous--because Kuze enjoys it. Kuze stops Atsumu from going too far, but look how happy Kuze is that he was able to manipulate things to get Atsumu to be so upset:

http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/7/9644d42b2400f308a0fa5d694a102722.jpeg

Kuze is totally getting off on the fact that Atsumu is crying and emotionally messed up here--and Kuze let that happen because Kuze wanted to see it.

At tensions increase, communication breaks down and Atsumu becomes fearful of Kuze.

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/9/66f66bb3dd31339d912c6596ee04fc37.jpeg

Kuze actively chases potential friends away from Atsumu again and again:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/9/7dd3ef678111c5e0853d67081184d4e0.jpeg

Did you catch the look Kuze gives Atsumu when Atsumu says he wants to get to know his classmates? That's some "better walk on egg shells to please me" crap. Kuze starts teasing Atsmu to shame him and call him names:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/9/7b792808ddc7cabbd42f02de0a26aa63.jpeg

When Atsumu lies about lunch with Azusa, it's because Kuze is scaring the shit out of him.

When Atsumu says he isn't scared of Karino, Kuze is displeased because Kuze wants Atsumu to be scared of Karino (and everyone). So, Kuze shows Atsumu that Karino isn't nice. Kuze knows this will upset Atsumu, but Kuze wants Atsumu to be upset and emotionally unbalanced. Kuze gets off on making Atsumu feel like that.

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/9/44d108a0e0e5bd6e651439b5365e7771.jpeg

Then when Atsumu wants to help Azusa, Kuze first follows karino's orders even when he can see how much it upsets Atsumu, and then adds an additional un-ordered rape. Karino never tells Kuze to put is dick in Atsumu--that all Kuze. Kuze is totally getting off on it at that time too (you put great weight on things like hard-ons and orgasm--if Kuze was just following orders, why did he get hard?)

This is known as a "incident of abuse" in the domestic abuse cycle. It's a "blow up". It's followed by a show of remorse and reeling the victim back in so that the next time it happens (and the next, and the next) the survivor feels like he's fallen deeper and deeper in the trap.

When Atsumu is understandably upset, Kuze makes it all about himself, throwing a tantrum, focusing the attention on Kuze's emotions until he gets Atsumu to put his legitimate feelings aside to tend to Kuze:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/5dadad04d709da8f3c81ace39e119f27.jpeg

But Atsumu is surprisingly strong in his reconciliation, and Kuze doesn't quite like it. Kuze has to be told to hug Atsmu back after all that:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/7ff759281c5b9c628efde4ad2b6f7b65.jpeg

Kuze is quick to hug crying weak Atsumu--but he slow to embrace strong Atsumu. Kuze wants Astumu to weep and cling to him and him alone. Kuze doesn't want Atsumu to get strong and act as an equal.

And once Kuze feels he has Atsumu again, it's clear Kuze has not changed at all:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/21e27a7f4344a33eceea17f57db7e07d.jpeg

Once again, we see Astumu traumatized and Kuze smiling. This is how Kuze ikes it. Of course, after that Kuze feeds more BS about the caste system to Atsumu so that Astsumu gives in and makes peace with it. Atsumu does it because buying into the rational is easier than sticking with his convictions. It's just as well, since Azusa doesn't want Atsumu's help--but if we are looking at Atsumu's convictions alone here, Atsumu fails.

TL;DR: Kuze shows all the red flags of an abusive relationship and goes through the cycle of abuse including (1) calm or honeymoon phase, (2) tension building, (3) abusive incident, and (4) reconciliation and a return to the first phase of "calm". It looks to me as if the cycle will only continue repeating itself because Kuze hasn't shown any desire to change.

LOL, if we are going to say that in this universe, hard on = consent, then I suppose it was just an orgy. That isn't really how I read it, but I can't fault your logic if I accept that premise. Still, I think the reader was supposed to question it, you know? Like we are supposed to see it's fucked up and not fun. While I don't dismiss yaoi hard-ons and orgasms the way I would in real life, I don't think they are everything in this story either. I think all these boys have raging hormones and feelings they don't understand, and the act out in ways that reflect all that desire, insecurity, need and confusion.

Also, I think Kuze is a huge prick (and not in a good way).

*Karino, if I were you I wouldn't be so proud of someone else's dick making my boyfriend that hard" because real pleasure is not only coming, but enduring the game.*

Karino was the one who made it hard, Karino prepared him.
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c008/30.html

If Azusa didn't dislike his dick his reaction wouldn't be "Don't joke around like that, I'll kill you!" and he would have found some pleasure in it, but he hasn't.

*he does not "obey" to Karino. I agree he's not a fighter, but not because he's afraid of others… which he's probably not. *

I don't know how much he's afraid of Karino, but he did clearly stated that he wanted the king card and as soon as Karino threatened him he backed off.

*In the end, who rules the game?*
Karino does. If Kuze would disagree Karino could order any other classmate to the job. But it doesn't mean that Kuze had anything against it, though later on he did regret what happened and that's why he was angry with Karino.

*His deeper satisfaction comes from making others seem guilty for his bad actions *
Atsumu blamed Kuze for what happened, so Kuze couldn't fool even him.

*Do not tell me he was raped, he had a bunch of fun even if he was uneasy with the situation*

Well, he did cry his heart out, so much so, that Azusa (as horrible as felt), had to be the strong one and support him.

*Much easier than admitting "how I liked Azusa's hole, what a shame he belongs to someone else.*
Atsumu does have a thing for Azusa, but Azusa is not interested, not to mention that he belongs to Karino.

*These guys are really sad.*

Oh, no, they are total fun!
*but no one will pity him since sane people want to see him dead, possibly atrociously dead*

Sane people wouldn't be searching for angels in sensei's stories, especially in the dark ones. Angels are needed in rl, but in fiction they are plain boring.

*Just reading the comments I'm loosing my faith in Senzaki. He's an honest psycho, not a looser like the rest of them.*

I don't know about losers, but the difference between him and Karino is that the first one wouldn't think twice before killing someone, while the other one is actually able to THINK.. and he's good at it.

*He will give them a closer look and he will decide it's too much of an effort to take his gloves off for them.*

Forget about gloves, I'm just hoping he's going to at least take off his glasses some day ;)

I'll read your reply tomorrow, I can't keep my eyes open..

*Kuze is passive-aggressive, manipulative and abusive, but not necessarily sadistic. It's not violence he needs, but power and control enough to allow him to be abusive*
What happened in ch8 was pure violence, which Kuze has never shown before. As for him being passive-aggressive or rather passive-possessive or even active-possessive - no doubt about that. Even Atsumu realized it at some point. He forgives him because he loves him and because he’s a kind person, he even forgave Azusa (not that Azusa cares, heh).
*In chapter one, I think Kuze does more bullying on Azusa's behalf than Azusa himself does: Azusa is kind of frowning in the background, but look at Kuze's grin in the next panel.*
Azusa is pretty pleased. It was Karino who kicked that guy off the chair. But Kuze doesn’t mind, obviously. Kuze was kissing Azusa’s ass even though he actually disliked him.
*Starting with Chapter four, Kuze is initially attracted to Atsumu's weakness (rather than his personality or his heart)*
Isn’t weakness part of his personality? And their story starts from ch5, I know that, because first 4 chapters are about my favorite couple (god, I miss those two ;(((
*and puts Atsumu in a much higher social rank that Atsuma actually wanted.*
Atsumu wanted to get rid of Joker card, he would be happy to have any card but joker, though later on (after incident with the queen) he even started to think about King-card; he is pretty ambitious, our little rabbit, lol:)))
*Kuze claims he is a person who likes to take care of "others" but that's BS (see chapter one)--he is only interested in Atsumu, not others *
Kuze says that he likes someone who can’t do anything without him. Well, Atsumu probably was the most miserable one of all.
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c011.5/12.html
*Kuze purposefully creates a situation where he knew Atsumu would likely protect him. Kuze can see how much it upsets Atsumu,, but Kuze smiles as Atsumu cries because Kuze has proven how much control he has over Atsumu, and how much he can get Atsumu to do for him*
Kuze wouldn’t know if Atsumu could overcome his fear (that scaredy-cat that he was), Kuze wouldn’t create that situation on purpose, unless he’s out of his mind. If Atsumu failed to help, Kuze would have to deal with that big boy Yatori and it looks to me Kuze would have his pretty face pretty damaged:
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c006/27.html
And you can see that Kuze was quite surprised to see Atsumu all fired up:
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c006/29.html
*Kuze sees Atsumu getting stronger, and takes steps to stop Atsumu from having other friends or outside support systems. Kuze purposefully isolates Atsumu and tells Atsumu Kuze will think for him.*
Agree on that and all that queen incident, and it’s obvious that Atsumu is afraid of Kuze, he says it himself.
*When Atsumu says he isn't scared of Karino, Kuze is displeased because Kuze wants Atsumu to be scared of Karino (and everyone). So, Kuze shows Atsumu that Karino isn't nice.*
Yes, though I think his greatest pleasure was to show Atsumu that Azusa wasn’t as cool as Atsumu thought he was.
*Kuze knows this will upset Atsumu, but Kuze wants Atsumu to be upset and emotionally unbalanced. Kuze gets off on making Atsumu feel like that.*
I don’t see him getting off here, he’s actually not happy with Atsumu’s reaction.
*Then when Atsumu wants to help Azusa, Kuze first follows karino's orders even when he can see how much it upsets Atsumu, and then adds an additional un-ordered rape. Karino never tells Kuze to put is dick in Atsumu--that all Kuze. Kuze is totally getting off on it at that time too*
Maybe it was sort of cleansing ritual? Kuze got off with Atsumu many times before, why not now?
*you put great weight on things like hard-ons and orgasm*
Not me, the author does. I’m just enjoying all those orgasms, passions, obsessions.. Why would I even read yaoi otherwise?
*if Kuze was just following orders, why did he get hard?*
I’ve never said he was JUST following orders, I have already mentioned he was angry at Atsumu for lying and getting close to Azusa. But Karino was the one who came with the idea and gave the orders.
*When Atsumu is understandably upset, Kuze makes it all about himself, throwing a tantrum, focusing the attention on Kuze's emotions until he gets Atsumu to put his legitimate feelings aside to tend to Kuze*
You forgot what Kuze was thinking to himself, that’s his REAL thoughts: “I should be kind, kind..” Kuze wasn’t putting on a show, that was real him:
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c009/10.html
*But Atsumu is surprisingly strong in his reconciliation, and Kuze doesn't quite like it. Kuze has to be told to hug Atsmu back after all that. Kuze is quick to hug crying weak Atsumu--but he slow to embrace strong Atsumu. Kuze wants Astumu to weep and cling to him and him alone. Kuze doesn't want Atsumu to get strong and act as an equal.
Yes, he says it himself: http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c011.5/12.html
But at that particular moment he was just surprised: ”Atsumu, I never thought you had such a power”.
http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/7ff759281c5b9c628efde4ad2b6f7b65.jpeg
*And once Kuze feels he has Atsumu again, it's clear Kuze has not changed at all:
http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/10/21e27a7f4344a33eceea17f57db7e07d.jpeg*
That guy who tried to tell the teacher ended up in the hospital, maybe Kuze was protecting Atsumu from that fate.
*TL;DR: Kuze shows all the red flags of an abusive relationship and goes through the cycle of abuse including (1) calm or honeymoon phase, (2) tension building, (3) abusive incident, and (4) reconciliation and a return to the first phase of "calm". It looks to me as if the cycle will only continue repeating itself because Kuze hasn't shown any desire to change.*
Kuze is a traumatized and unbalanced person, though he doesn’t even realize it: ”I thought I took care of you so carefully, did I break you?” : http://www.mangahere.co/manga/caste_heaven/c009/5.html
But that double rape wouldn’t have happened if Kuze wasn’t pissed with Atsumu and if Karino didn’t orchestrate it.

Well, you and I have a totally different interpretation of Kuze's thoughts and actions. That happens. I looked at your links and I still see a manipulative passive-aggressive bastard, but I simply don't like the charater enough to go thorugh link by link again and argue.

Can we at least agree Kuze is annoying as f*ck?

No problem with that, especially since every time I saw him and Atsumu on the cover I new I'd have to wait for ages to see my adorable crazies - Kari and Azu.

PS While I went through those pages with Kuze I had a good laugh though - I mean this dude actually believes he's a caring and kind person: "I thought I took care of you so carefully", LOL :DDD

I agree with that part--Kuze really thinks of himself as a good guy. *Eyes to heaven*. And i used to do the same when I saw them on the cover. :)