I agree with the latter point. His life would be easier if his brother succeeded in dying--he wants him out of the way so he gets whatever it is he thinks he deserves (the better place). When his brother was bullied, on his knees, begging for help, Jiwook felt superior, higher, better. And the only way to keep that is if his brother stays down on his knees, humiliated, the school loser--or dies.
Which makes him a lousy person.
I hope you don't think i'm trying to plead Jiwook's case, i'm definitely not. He's an asshole, i'm just trying to analyze him as a character and one thing i couldn't leave out is that in this most recent chapter it definitely seems as though he still cares for his brother in some small part of his bitterness-shriveled heart. The scenes that make me think so are: the flashback scene when it shows the two of them and those ladies start talking about how it must suck being compared to his brother and Siwon goes to comfort him. At first he accepts the comfort, then he gets upset and hits his hand away, then he realizes what he did and shows a regretful expression that makes me think he feels remorse for hitting Siwon's hand away which would indicate that he cares for his brother. The other scene that makes me feel like he still cares for his brother is the scene where, during Joohoon's call to him, Jiwook says "i almost lost my brother because of what happened!", i don't think this needs explained as to how it would make me think he cares for his brother.
No, not at all. I think you've made a good assessment of what may be going on.
Furthermore, I think SiWon will rescue him. I really do think that SiWon, who has a great distaste for Joohoon and bullies in general, will come to Jiwook's rescue if he gets targeted again, and this will be a mental turning point--epiphany--for Jiwook. One of those, "My God, what did I do? Why did I do that? My brother saved me when I needed him, unlike me, who let him take my place." It will be therapeutic. At least, that's how I see that playing out.
The only reason I quibble with the former part is that I think Jiwook went after Joohoon, the same way he seems to want to be a sidekick for SiWoon. He's looking to hang with those who have power/money/status (Joohoon is clearly a sadistic nasty bit of a guy, but he is able to order people around, so I assume he carries weight and power in that setting). SiWoon, the "prince" as it were, is now Jiwook's target for status, for a "place" of honor. But he's not getting anywhere and resents that Siwoon is with Siwon. Siwon taking "his place" again. Boy is psycho with the complex. So, I do think he pursued JooHoon for his purposes, but JooHoon is not controllable. And he did something to piss off Joohoon to the point that the gang-rape punishment occurred. (Or maybe he flirted with JooHoon in order to get favors--even such as arranging for his brother to be bullied. I don't put it past him. Since JooHoon said he benefitted.)
The phone call statement could be guilt, could be manipulating Joohoon, could be some remnant of real feeling from the past when the two brothers actually got along (before the inferiority complex came in and messed his soul up). Some remnant of that younger Jiwook can be there. But the way he consistently rips into SiWon doesn't show much remorse or affection. I would think that when I did something self-protective it nearly utterly destroyed my sibling, that it would snap me out of my self-absorption to realize I was on a bad path. That Jiwook continues to be evil to his brother minimizes any ejaculation of concern on the phone for me. It's almost as if Joohoon is right: What? Trying to play the victim? Trying to feel better?
One shred of real remorse toward his brother might have made me believe that outburst was more than self-protective shifting of blame to Joohoon. That is, not accepting his part in the game.
No matter his sense of inferiority/loss, I cannot forgive how he has cold-heartedly treated his one and only brother of whom we have zero evidence was a bully, but rather the bullied one. So, even if the story is going in the direction of redeeming him (and that's gonna take loads of work, but it doable if he really repents and confesses his part in destroying his brother, even if it's to his not-real-brother), I think it's SiWon who will end up snapping Jiwook out of his villainous path.
I think it would also be possible, that he is so mean to his brother (taemin) now, because he can't forgive himself for what he did
While that's not impossible and the author might work it out to some degree to that, let's just say she's making it hard to go there. It's like avoiding a lot of evidence, like passing around the rape cd and having a bunch of guys beat his brother up (maybe rape him again, who knows) is not forgiving himself? He was pretty clear in his bathroom monologue (see link later) that he is doing eveyrthing to KEEP his place, and he was mad the bullies didn't crush SiWon.
In the bathroom monologue, one can't argue he's saying mean words just to "test" his brother. THis is him talking to himself and he's angry the bullies didn't succeed in ripping SiWon up.
Not saying that not-forgiving-self thing's not gonna be one of the later on reasons. just saying that so far, there is NO evidence Jiwook wants to make up for what he did, no real sense of guilt (even psycho Joo mentions Jiwook wanting to displace guilt with his outburst). Just a desire to crush SiWon that drives him to do nasty things.
Anything can happen later, but up to now, Jiwook has been pretty consistent in wanting to destroy his brother, and not out of guilt, but out of a desire to have the supremacy, the better place, the place of the "better brother." He could enjoy his brother's low, painful position, because it meant he didn't suffer that.
"You need to live like you're dead for the rest of your life." The statement seems to be in accord with other "you should stay dead" statemewnts. So, unless this is one of those fine psychological things that because they ware Twins, when he speaks to SiWon's image, he speaks REALLY to himself--again, very possible in a long-term outworking--the author is making it look like it's just a brother hating a brother to the point of plotting true violence..
Where is there a hint of self-reflection and remorse about disseminating the rape cd (which means he WATCHED his brother raped) and siccing bullies on him to mess him up?
Of course, the ultimate twist would be that the dead one is JiWook and the blue-hair is SiWon who took his brother's place to stop being bullied. I haven't discounted that possibility. In which case, SiWon is the villain.
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/geu_kkeute_issneun_geos/uu/geu_kkeute_issneun_geos-chapter-26/35/
Yes, it is definitely completely possible, maybe even likely that, Jiwook DOESN'T have any care left for his brother at this point, i just felt differently given the scenes. You DID have a point about the phone call scene possibly being just a Joohoon described it, as Jiwook just trying to feel better about what happened, though that would also imply that he already feels BAD about what he did and could imply care. It's all convoluted. Who knows? I personally don't believe that Joohoon was a target of Jiwook as an increase in power, i base this on the new chapter as it shows pretty clearly that Jiwook is actually scared of Joohoon and asking "why is he contacting me again", it seems as though he wants nothing to do with him. This and Joohoon's personality are why i believe that, rather than someone Jiwook was targeting for power, he was a bully to Jiwook. It doesn't really show Joohoon as someone popular either, that i remember. Though honestly its really up to interpretation as there isn't really anything concrete so far. You could definitely be right. I agree with you that he is sucking up to Siwoon for this reason, however. If there is anyone to stick around to become popular, it is Siwoon. Personally, i don't believe, taking that Jiwook MIGHT still care for his brother, that Jiwook means that he wants Siwon dead when he talks about his "spot". If this was the case then he still wouldn't have his spot, however despite Siwon still being alive he still says "i finally got my spot back", i think he means that he no longer wants to be just "Siwon's brother", he wants to be his own person. I think he only treats Siwon badly and wants his death out of panic that he'll be caught for what he did, IF he did convince Joohoon to rape Siwon instead of himself. Once again, this is definitely just my opinion and i'm not saying yours is any less valid, i'm trying to consider yours actually while thinking of ways it ties into mine.
I don't think i explained the bit about Jiwook's "spot" very well, i'll try again here: Siwon survived his suicide attempt (as Taemin) and even though he is still alive Jiwook is still seen saying multiple times that he "finally has his spot back", this implies that Jiwook can have his "spot" without the death of his brother. This is why i believe that by "spot" he means that he wants to be his own person rather than that he wants his brother to die. I can see how you'd connect the two desires, however, as the reason he didn't feel like his own person is because his brother was outshining him. I just don't believe the death is necessary since he was talking about how he had his spot back in present tense even with Siwon still being alive. Though i suppose he IS trying to remove him as an obstacle, ah, I think thats it. I think he just feels the need to remove him as an obstacle, not for his death. I believe he only mentions how it would've been better if he HAD died because he's terrified that he's going to be found out.
We can't possibly know who is right, given the author has final say and can do ANYTHING. Heck, I kinda still wish she'd bring the real SiWon back to life somehow in some other dead body.
I keep working that twins switch thing. It makes so much of this fit if, after the great psycho-break of Jiwook in the past, he was actually the one who figured out how to get the better of SiWon and get him bullied, but that SiWon figured out how to set up Jiwook and got a great opportunity to take his place given the coma. THat would explain the "why didn't you just die" and "I finally got my place back." The one who had the supreme place was SIWon in childhood. But somehow, SiWon lost that and Jiwook was the non-loser. So, if SiWon set Jiwook up and it's Jiwook who is dead and SiWon was able to take the non-loser place by being his non-bullied brother. This would explain his fear of JooHoon. JooHoon knows there was somehow a brother switch, but maybe even JooHoon doesn't know to what extent.
Maybe I"m too enamored of this twins switch, but it sure does seem to explain a lot as I ponder it.
But if it's a twins switch (Jiwook is really SiWon, because SiWon wanted HIS place BACK, ie, he was originally top twin), then that explains what he means by it being his. Jiwook never had top spot. He never was the praised/admired one. SiWon was.
The mirror scene and the stay dead phrases start to make a lot of sense if this is an actual opportunistic switch.
Oh, and yes, he had a spot when his brother became the loser. That's why I think he may have encouraged the bullying (one possibility). Because if his brother is bullied, a losesr, the school gay slut--that puts Jiwook in the higher spot. The brother who IS NOT bullied, who is NOT the loser, who is not the gay slut.
But to have one's spot by the denigration of the other is villailny. And it makes the brother's life worse than death.
Remember, Taemin said he saw "fear" in Jiwook's eyes when he was questioning Jiwook about his connection with Joohoon. I think Jiwook's prime motivations right now are: 1. To not get caught for having used his brother as a scapegoat to escape gang rape (if he gets caught he probaby wont be viewed in a favorable light anymore so his selfishness might be a factor here or it COULD be a sense of guilt at what he did to the brother that still cares for while hating him). and 2. To remain popular now that he isn't being overshadowed by his brother (motivation 1 is appropriately listed as 1 because if he's found out this 2nd motivation will be ruined as well).
OMG, me too. I want real Siwon to still be alive in real Taemin's body. It was too nice a body to just die off like that and i want Siwon to get some justice. Personally, i think the twin switch theory is a little far-fetched, but not because it doesn't make sense. It definitely covers quite a few points that were previously confusing in the text, i just think the IDEA is a little outlandish. It's possible, definitely and there isn't really a reason it wouldn't work or any evidence debunking it so far, i just can't see it.
And then Taemin just comes in and destroys everyone who treats him as less than human, both literally physically beating them up and mentally. (๑•ㅂ•)و✧
Well, a guy who can order/direct a gang-rape and who think you betrayed him is worthy of fear. :) for various reasons. (Even if the twins switch theory is correct, that makes it even more reason to fear, because JooHoon might figure the switch out.)
I loved that so much. I think all of us who really despise bullying lovie to see when the tables turn and the bullied take down the bullies. It's a beautiful thing. (Okay, let's hear the barrage of how I'm not treating humans with due courtesy of their humanity for wanting bullies bullied back. :D)
Yep. That could be it.
ahahaha, no i completely agree. It was so satisfying. No one can deny that every single one of them deserved what they got, i'd be one thing if he had KILLED any of them, but all he does is kick their asses in the process doling out a little justice the right way.
The only ones I"d not mind one bit seeing given the ultimate off-the-roof style punishment are JooHoon and the rapists. I mean, that was brutal. BRUTAL.
I wouldn't necessarily say organizing a gang rape shows any power or influence on Joohoon's part as all he'd need to do is find the most unsavory people he could find that wouldn't blink when he offered free forced sex that no one would tell on. It was an organized crime that, in theory, has no consequences. They get what they want and unless the victim is willing to recount their nightmare they wont get caught, all he'd have to do is promise them that none of the rapers involved would tattle on any of the others. Joohoon only says that Jiwook "betrayed" him because after the gang rape Jiwook stopped contacting him, which could also imply that he wants nothing to do with Joohoon rather than to stick around him for power. This is, of course, just what i'm getting from this read and is just my interpretation.
Yes, i wouldn't feel any sympathy for them if i just read the next chapter and saw them die, but if i'm thinking about whether or not it is morally right i can't say it is. I'd still be happy about it though. ╮(￣▽￣)╭
I think i see whats going on now, Jiwook has been compared to Siwon since they were younger and has developed an inferiority complex because of it, despite said complex he still seems to care about his brother to an extent even now (he said he "almost lost his brother because of what happened" in a way that made it seem like he cared if he did). Fast forward to the present, somehow Joohoon must've found out about how fragile a person Jiwook is and decided to bully him since he is clearly either an extreme sadist or just a mentally fucked up person (i'm leaning more towards fucked up because there hasn't really been anything that shows any kind of kink here so much as him just being an asshole.). Eventually the bullying progressed to the point that Joohoon was threatening to rape Jiwook and so Jiwook, in the heat of the moment and out of fear for himself, convinced Joohoon to rape his brother instead. The reason he acts so cold when he brother survives the suicide attempt and is possessed by Taemin is because he feels guilty over his choice, as i said i believe he still cares for his brother but also hates him due to the complex, and because he doesn't want anyone to know what he did. He might be thinking that if Siwon kills himself that it would tie the loose ends so, despite hating what he did, he is trying to make Siwon's life hell again RIGHT after he survived a suicide attempt to make him finish the job (successfully kill himself this time). He keeps mentioning how he's "got his place back", i think this just means that now that Siwon is out of the spotlight he isn't being compared to him anymore and is no longer just "siwon's brother".