AstroBoi's Topics (301)

I think it's called pride? Or dignity

Yesss say it louder.
And its always like this in manhwa with debtor uke + chaebol seme, same plot same rules, not complaining though cause i'll always fall for it too

because YEOMIN NEVER ASKED FOR ANYTHING, like he insisted that he would pay for the debt of his father and mind you, he stayed with the ml side because HE LOVES THAT MF.

why would we even blame yeomin for having inconsistent when all he thought is that ml is doing it to him because that mf wanted to help without anything in return, and that ml keep thinking how 'easy' yeomin.

He wanted to be out because that's hella suffocating. He loves that mf, he wasn't staying by that ml side because HE WANTED SOMETHING. IS THAT EVEN HARD TO UNDERSTAND? YOUR TYPE OF PEOPLE ARE SOOOO DOWN FOR MONEY, I SWEAR. THAT YOU ARE OKAY WITH ANY MC LOSING THEIR DIGNITY.

Being financially dependent on someone is not a good choice.
Also Yeomin is clearly a hard working individual who doesn't need someone else's help he just needed a good companion. He has pride and ego. He wants to solve his problems on his own without involving others.
ML only gives an illusion of freedom. As soon as he goes against him see what happens.

(Even in real-life if someone were to give you such benefits. It would feel nice at first but soon they will think that they own you. You will always be inferior to them never a equal. And if you ever try to do something they don't agree with, they may be aggressive or leave you in a much worse condition. Such situations create bad power dynamics)

Fair point. I believe it is because they view it as another debt. Yeomin (and few others) are usually inept when it comes either emotional awareness or intellectual awareness (usually the latter) because of their upbrings. When ML said "nah, I don't like you" but goes out the way to support and please you, most emotional intellectuals would catch that perhaps they do have feelings but can only express through actions.

Yeomin and man others have been treated so bad, they can't comprehend weather or not the action is normal. Don't forget, when Yeomin's father came back the first time, he spurred nonsense like how Yeomin owes him for taking care of him n' what not. Yeomin to also be connecting that as well.

I do find the trope itself annoying, but I enjoy the retllings from different artists and writers!

you know, most people have a normal reaction to this type of plot, but there's always a few that say bs like the original commenter, like yeomin should just be grateful, and that because he was abused by his family and loan sharks, he should also accept bad treatment from the ml (????) I think to these people "consent" is a foreign concept, like their brain would explode at the idea that getting money when you were explicitly against it is a violation of your autonomy. they can't understand that yeomin is upset that the ml sees their relationship as a sugar arrangement, where yeomin gets his financials taken care of just so that the ml can have sexual access to him without any annoying hassles. there are even people that are annoyed that yeomin wants to escape his capture, bc to them being imprisoned but having their basic needs met by a rich captor is a win. I can't even call this type of people sheep, bc even animals in a zoo, who get all their needs taken care of, still want to escape their cage if given the chance. I try to tell myself they're trolls bc the thought that some people genuinely think this way is depressing

okay, so it’s clear to me very few of you actually read my comment. it completely went over your heads that i said one is the illusion on control, and one is the appearance of no control. MC did/does not have control in either situation. i’m trying to make that very very clear.

you said "so they only want to be threatened and controlled when it causes their life pain, but when it doesn't cause their life pain they go "hmmm sorry not for me"????". when exactly did yeomin WANT to be threatened and controlled? he cut his father out of his life and ran from the loan sharks anytime he could, so there's nothing in this story suggesting that he accepted bad treatment from others as you seem to imply. he was just dealing with his cards as best he could. he tried to assert control in his life where it was possible, and one instance was by refusing the ml's money. that was his right, even if it made things harder for him and the ml had no business ignoring his wishes just bc it was inconvenient for him that yeomin was so poor and busy and stressed. the lesson is don't force your help onto someone who tells you they don't want it, just be there for them in a manner that is also acceptable for the other person. you know, consent.

THISS, OH MY GODDESS. I LOVE YOUR EXPLANATION, THIS IS ON POINTT ╮( •ω• )╭

i think you’re taking the word “want” way more literally than i meant it. obviously i don’t think MC wanted to be threatened by loan sharks or controlled by his family. my point is that i don’t really consider his life before this to be “free” either. if you’re starving, working multiple jobs, running from people threatening you, and constantly having your choices dictated by poverty and everyone around you, what freedom are you actually protecting? yeah, he had every right to refuse the ML’s money, and ofc, the ML was wrong for ignoring that. i’ve literally never argued otherwise. i’m questioning MCs logic, not defending the ML’s behavior. if maintaining that illusion of freedom means continuing a life where you’re miserable, starving, being threatened, and very possibly going to die anyway, then i genuinely don’t understand what the point of the struggle is. maybe that’s just where my values differ from his, but that’s what i was criticizing in the first place.

well now the discussion is more interesting because I do think there's perfect logic to yeomin's choice. when it came to his father or the loan sharks, he had very limited ways in which he could assert his will in the relationship - he didn't choose his father and tried to limit contact, but the damage was done and he inherited his father's debt. with loan sharks, he couldn't just stop them from abusing him since they were the ones with power in the relationship. but with the ml, that was a relationship that wasn't pushed onto him, he willingly got into it and tried to set some of the terms, the major one being that he didn't want to use the ml's money to get himself out of his shitty situation. yeomin has trauma about being a burden to those around him (he thinks that's why his mom left and his dad basically said he's a burden), so he doesn't want to be a burden on his love interest as well. plus, since the ml didn't really suggest he actually cares about yeomin too, accepting money from him would place their relationship in a transactional area, where yeomin was basically getting paid for sex. yeomin didn't want that, he wants a relationship where they can stand on as equal a footing as possible. he accepted kind gestures from the ml and he tried his best to do kind gestures back, like cooking dinner. but having the ml pay off his debts would leave him completely vulnerable in the relationship and i think yeomin is done with power imbalances in his life

ok… i think this explanation makes his reasoning make more sense to me, especially the part about him asserting control where he actually can. i can understand why, esp after spending so much of his life powerless, being able to say “i’m doing this myself” would be important to him.

i think where we differ is how much value we place on the act of autonomy when the cost of maintaining it becomes extreme. refusing the ML’s money might give MC more control over that specific decision, but to me it doesn’t actually put them on equal footing. he’s still poor, overworked, in debt, vulnerable to people threatening him, and potentially putting his life at risk… while the ML has money and power regardless. so to me, there’s still an element of an illusion of freedom there. he’s asserting control over one thing because he finally can, which i understand better now, but his actual tangible circumstances are still controlling huge portions of his life. i think that’s ultimately the part of his character that grates me.

while i understand why he’s doing it more from the context about his trauma around being of being a burden, i just can’t relate to valuing that sense of independence so much so that i’d choose an objectively more dangerous and physically miserable existence to preserve it. especially if the alternative gives me a better chance of surviving long enough to eventually build actual independence long term. i think that’s probably just where the MC and i (and other commenters as pointed out) genuinely fundamentally differ in what we consider freedom worth sacrificing for in that sense.

this is where it gets more philosophical, because I agree that his choices in life are very limited bc of his poverty, it's objectively true that having money gives you more freedom. but it wasn't HIS money that would be solving yeomin's issues, so it's almost like he once again had to accept that something that just happened to him without any input or effort from him, like meeting a love interest that happened to be rich, would completely alter the course of his life once again, even if in a positive direction this time. i think freedom is also choosing to live in less than ideal conditions, rather than put your fate in someone else's hands. it's kinda like the tradwife trend - sure some women might be living an objectively more comfortable and financially "free" life if their husband is rich, compared to single women supporting themselves on a minimum wage. but the tradwives rely on the fact that their husband will forever be a benevolent person that loves them and wants to take care of them, and that's a big gamble to make and a lot of autonomy to forsake

so the tradwife comparison actually gets to why we’re valuing this so differently. you see putting your fate in someone else’s hands as potentially giving up too much autonomy, even if it materially improves your life. and trust i get that. i think for me, there’s a point where survival itself has to come before autonomy, because without surviving you never get the opportunity to build actual freedom later.

maybe part of why i see it that way is because i’m a black american. so much of our history involved people who quite literally did not have the option of controlling their own circumstances. enslaved people didn’t get to decide whether their fate was in someone else’s hands. survival had to matter, not because those conditions were acceptable or because dignity didn’t matter, but because surviving meant there was still a tomorrow. there were still children, families, communities, opportunities to escape, resist, preserve culture, and eventually fight for something better. but don’t get me wrong, there were also points in our history where people decided dignity and freedom were worth risking their lives for, and those moments were very very important too. so it’s highly probable that influences how i personally weigh survival vs autonomy. if accepting circumstances i don’t like today gives me a significantly better chance of surviving long enough to eventually have real independence tomorrow, i’m probably taking that deal. to me, death is the one outcome that guarantees that ill never be free.

that’s why MCs choice is hard for me to relate to even though i understand it better after this conversation. i understand why having something else completely alter the course of his life, could feel like one more thing happening to him. i just personally wouldn’t protect my ability to say “at least this choice was mine” to the point where the choice itself could destroy my chance of ever reaching the independence i’m trying to protect.

i think we just have different ideas about when survival is worth temporarily sacrificing some autonomy. and i don’t think either one is inherently wrong, just different. that's probably why we read the MC the way we do and have had this discussion… but above all for anyone reading my comments, i wanted to make abundantly clear: i do NOT condone the MLs behavior, i want MC to be happy, i just have a different way of viewing the characters is all

hmm it's interesting and it's not like I feel there's an objectively right answer to this, it's more about the level of uncertainty and control that every person is comfortable with.

the tradwife example is perfect for illustrating how I think of freedom in terms of possible future options that any choice opens up or closes down. for a tradwife, these are some possible bad scenarios she would need to consider:
- if her husband dies, she doesn't have a career to fall back on and might end up in poverty unless there's a large inheritance, which would be extra painful after living a very comfortable life
- if her husband just leaves her, the same as above but worse bc there's no inheritance
- if her husband becomes abusive, he can literally control her life bc he has the resources to keep her exactly where he wants her, even if she were to try to leave (the ml in this story is exactly this type of psycho)

the woman on a minimum wage on the other hand could TECHNICALLY improve her life, like find a better job bc she's not forced to stay in the current one. she could climb the job ladder or do a course and find a better paying career etc. ofc she is also one bad event away from homelessless if she doesn't have a support system, i get that.

to me it just feels like the single woman has more options where she herself can alter the course of her life. the tradwife just needs to hope and pray that her circumstances don't change, but there's little she can do to actually influence the worst case scenarios for her, if that makes sense

ahhh okay. i where the tradwife comparison loses me a little. i understand your definition of freedom as preserving your ability to influence your own future, and i get why the single woman technically has more control over her trajectory than someone whose security depends entirely on their spouse.

but i don’t think the starting points (at least for most trad wives but i recognize not all) are equivalent to MC’s situation. the tradwife is secure now, and sure her husband could die, leave, or become abusive. the single woman could get a better job, take a course, etc. but MCs danger isn’t hypothetical. he’s already extremely poor, overworked, struggling to eat, in debt, and being threatened by people who could seriously hurt him.

and i think “technically” is where my illusion of freedom point comes back cause technically having options and realistically being able to exercise them are different things. if you’re barely surviving, those future possibilities can exist on paper without actually being accessible to you.

a closer comparison to me would be a woman whose independence is already leaving her poor, overworked, hungry, and in physical danger, who then has the option of becoming financially dependent on someone. now both choices carry serious risks: dependence could compromise her future autonomy, but remaining “independent” is already threatening whether she’ll have much of a future at all.

and i’m not saying dependence is automatically the right choice, especially when the person is controlling. i just don’t think “which option gives me more control over my future?” can be separated from “which option gives me a realistic chance of reaching that future?” at the end of the day… that’s ultimately where our definitions of freedom go down different routes

i agree that yeomin's situation was particularly bad, but i also think he sort of has a sense that he's on top of his situation, he got into a routine of sorts where the shittiness is mostly manageable bc thinks he knows what to expect. he just has to avoid the bad people and keep going, and he thinks he will eventually graduate and find a little more stability. i think he feels like there's no such thing as a free lunch, so why should he accept so much money from a man who claims he only wants sex from him? especially bc he has feelings for that man. in his mind, i think that a future in which he gets rid of his debt, but gets abused by his love interest to whom he would become deeply indebted, instead of being abused by some rando loan sharks, is more emotionally painful

i think the situation would have been completely different if the ml said he also has feelings for yeomin and framed it as him wanting to help a loved one, but alas, here we are

oh for sure. i can see how that would emotionally torturous. and i think the “routine” aspect of everything plays a rather big part in this, the devil you know kind of thing. thanks for the discussion

Anyone wants popcorn? Doesn't anyone have butter?

Same here. Every time there’s an update I come read the comments lol. I half know the story just by coming to the comments section lol (〜￣△￣)〜
Though what a way to ruin a golden bl (╯°Д °)╯╧╧

frrr (╯°Д °)╯╧╧

I'm glad I read it too long ago that I forgot tbh because I really hated him then. I'm glad the author downplayed it too coz I don't want any conflicting emotions

Maybe because it's been 4 years ago. Some who find a new love after a year of break up can brush things off like their feelings from the previous one is not that big deal. No matter how he make an effort to chase before, it's just a crush so it's easily to move on.

I think it took him a long time to get over his crush. So now he is embarrassed at himself all those yrs ago. To me its not downplaying. As yrs pass time changes you. U change and grow and that's ok. And like he said he fell in love supposedly with his student and had to hold back.

Probably to not make Dohyun too unlikable.

Compared to Dohyun, Wooyeon never liked anyone, never had experience, heck never even kissed others.
Dohyun on the other hand has a ton of experience, and even had a love interest.

Since this story focuses more on Dohyun and Wooyeon, it may make it seem even kore unfair and definitely hurtful both for the readers and for Wooyeon. Since Wooyeon literally yearned for Dohyun, chose to cherish that love, and stayed pure. Whilst Dohyun pretty much negated and dismissed that feeling (because Wooyeon was so young), went ahead and fucked other people, had a genuine “like” towards his senior, and pretty much only began to see and develop feelings for Wooyeon after seeing him again in university being physically fit and cute, a complete contrast to his appearance back in the day, which makes me think sometimes that he only likes Wooyeon because of his appearance.

Honestly it’s kinda unfair to Wooyeon, but alas, that is the nature of unrequited love.

yeah you’re probs right. the thing that really stuck out to me is that dohyun said he wants to be serious with wooyeon. in omega complex he told his senior that he wanted to just start dating at first and see if they like each other, but he did eventually confess to his senior that he wanted to date him seriously. it made me go “wait hold on… didn’t you just tell your friend that it’s different this time”. and on top of that, his senior needed up being the one to push him to go to wooyeon during the time when he was in middle school and came home crying. if his senior didn’t encourage him, he would’ve hesitated to go… i understand why he hesitated (the age difference), but that’s still a pretty big development. idk im probs just being a hater lmao

Imagine if the senior reciprocated his feelings, Wooyeon wouldn’t stand a chance…

exactly. that’s probably why i’m such a big hater ┗( T﹏T )┛

Here’s my complete thoughts queen:

https://www.mangago.me/home/mangatopic/23204021/