Kiss*'s Topics (107)

Really, someone tell us :'( xD

Hee hee. I am assuming the woman in the apron who lets Tatsumi in was the maid. Do we ever see Mrs. Karino?

no,we have never seen her. Btw karino's father has serious health problems,if he dies it would be such a braking point for the story. We could easily see how the characters would react and it would be a perfect moment for an azusaxkarino development.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmsajxeW8AA5gtB.jpg
yasssssss!!!!! Karino wins!

i'm screaming omg i can't waait

NOOOOOOOOOO! I fucking love Senzaki :(

I hope he does, but we don't know what happens next, so I'm a little worried..

No :( senzaki is fucking strong something is wrong. I think he got easy on Karino not using his full power.

Karino is strong too, but I had a feeling that Senzaki is stronger (when it comes to physical strength), since he almost killed that guy who was rude to Tatsumi. But maybe it was a wrong impression based on the scene that showed us that his his atrocity has no limits.

Tatsumi has to chose between his bro or his lover. I don't know why senzaki hurt Karino (it's not what I expected) but he lost Tatsumi or maybe he wants to test his lover's true feelings.

Thanks Kiss! What is it with Senzaki and windows? That school needs to start putting screens in or something.

Does it look like Tatsumi hit Senzaki?

I'm really hoping this somehow leads to something happening that builds Karino and Azusa relationship ヾ(❀╹◡╹)ﾉ~

i think there are 2 ways:
1. There is the end for love of Senzaki and Tatsumi
2. Because of his uke, Senzaki would change himself to fit Tatsumi's life
i don't know what the raw says, but my experiences made me think that.

Look behind tatsumi on his right. Is that Azusa?

Yes, it is

I didn't pay attention to him,yes that's azusa and he seems to be enjoying it ahahahahah XXD

from what I saw things went in this order:
senzaki follows karino
he attacks karino
tatsumi and the others see the fight
tatsumi slaps senzaki because of what he did
senzaki and tatsumi stay together(which means senzaki gives up his desire to hurt karino)

"That school needs to start putting screens in or something. " ahahahaha yes,especially when your students are crazy XD
Yes,tatsumi hit senzaki. He arrives during the fight and slaps senzaki,but later they have sex (if I'm not forgetting the order)....so they're still together. Senzaki seems literally crazy,he wanted to push Karino outside the window.

I don't think Senzaki can change himself, he's (i think) a "love or death" type of person so if Tatsumi goes "against" him he would feel it like a betrayal. Im so afraid they break up because i love this kind of "Bonnie and Clyde" type of couple, and Senzaki is my favourite character :(
I'm sorry, my english is so bad but i wanted to join the discussion so bad :P

i can't be sure if Senzaki and Tatsumi would break up or not, maybe they will have "Cold War".
At least everyone is safe after that, Chapter 4 will show you why.

He-he, Azusa is in total shock, he is like: "Wow, Karino is a nice person after all, at least he didn't try to throw me out the window" :D

Or someone has the guts to beat karino. In a picture I saw Tatsumi Picking up his bro after he had sex with Azusa. Somehow it breaks my heart Karino ignoring him. So it's refreshing to see some action.

I don't see him "beating" Karino yet, for now it's only attacking and failing big time.

LOl "Nice" = "hasn't tried to throw me out a window yet." You're a glass half-full type, arent you? :)

That would make sense. It also shows that the sub usually holds most of the power in consensual BDSM relationships (because when the sub ain't happy, the dom has to change to please the sub).

In the pictures where Tatsumi is crying i've read it says something like "is over" but i hope he mean the fight or anything but their love. I swear this time the waiting is killing me. ARGH

Yes, Tatsumi breaks up with Senzaki. He say "This is the end" when he's crying ):
Buuut I think Senzaki deserves that, I mean he wanted to kill the king (?) and I love Karino so much. It's kinda sad but he was looking for it.

You know Tatsumi only uses Senzaki to enjoy his school life like Karino so he does not really loves him. He should date Azusa and not someone who will throw him away after a time limit.

That was a joke, I'm more like a "glass is empty when it's actually full" kinda person (he-he). But then again, Karino at least is sane, unlike Senzaki.

Now that Azusa knows that Senzaki against Karino, maybe HE will try to unite with him against Karino? And one more thing, Tatsumi should actually deep inside hate Karino (for being the "real thing") and his father for marrying another woman. I wonder why he is so loyal and if that will change at some point? If he gets some dirt on Karino (maybe with help of Azusa) Karino could be in trouble.

I was joking back. :) My humour can be blunt. ButI still like Senzaki. I mean clearly, he has a problem with windows (now that I've seen all the raw, it's an even bigger problem than IO thought) . Maybe his mom committed suicide by jumping or something? Maybe he's just nuts?

Anyway, I'm hoping Senzaki wins Tatsumi back. I don't know, maybe he could try not murdering Tatsumi's brother? That may help. Some guys are soft about family.

I liked that long discussion between Azusa and Tatsumi. I wish i knew what they said.

*Maybe he's just nuts?*
You doubt that?
*I'm hoping Senzaki wins Tatsumi back*
Senzaki should try to use his brain before he does something, if he has one, that is.

I think the discussion is like "you are a nuisance get away from Karino you little shit"

Sometimes there is a reason why someone is crazy. Sometimes that reason is mostly chance (biology) and sometimes it is trauma (enviornment--e.g. watching mom throw herself out a window). I am wondering more about why Senzaki is nuts rather that whether he is actually nuts.

Nuts is not always the same thing as stupid. We don't know that much about Senzaki, really. We know he's somehow "yakuza" outside of school (or at least, Tatsumi hears that) and we know he is given to bouts of accessive violence and purple prose about transcendent love. But we don't really know he's stupid.

We will have to see what happens next.

LOL. I like you. You dream big.

*Nuts is not always the same thing as stupid.*
Of course not, that's why I said he should use his brain if he has one. Though after what he did I seriously doubt he has it.

Sane???? Karino is 100% a sociopath like all the semes in this manga

tatsumi was thinking "there's no emotion in his body" when looking at karino,but I don't think he is a sociopath. More like a sadist or machiavellian ,but I'd chose machiavellian, It really fits his character.

Well, is not less crazy than Senzaki for me. Senzaki has a problem with windows and violence, but at least he's not a manipulative rapist (anyway i like him more than Kuze). I feel so bad for Senzaki, my fear is that he will disappear from the story, crazy or not.

*Senzaki has a problem with windows and violence, but at least he's not a manipulative rapist*

With windows? At least? Senzaki's problem is that he tries to kill someone without thinking twice or even once. Not that I mind crazies..

I do too. Senzaki's crazy is right there on the surface. If you can dance with the devil, he's at least a loyal partner. If his class king told Senzaki to hold down Tatsumi, Senzaki would try to kill that king too.

I am pretty sure Senzaki was just threatening Karino, or Karino would not have had time to get his balance, swing back into the room, and fight back. Senzaki may have almost beat the other guys to death, but that time Tatsumi's body language had said, "Hey, beat up that guy to show how much you care about me." I think Senzaki may have certain triggers.

Senzaki fucked Tatsumi half out of the window as a flirt with death thrill. He then almost jumped himself (though we don't know why--it's serious enough to make Tatsumi cry tough). Then Senzaki tries to threaten Karino by dangling him out the window. I sense a theme--but not a serious death threat.

Hey, how do you like Karino without glasses? Do you think he'll need to have Azusa guide him through the halls like a seeing eye dog?

*Senzaki's crazy is right there on the surface.*
Doesn't that make him kinda not too smart?

*If you can dance with the devil, he's at least a loyal partner.*
If he was loyal he wouldn't try to do something Tatsumi told him not to. Karino is devil too, but a smart one. And maybe he's not as crazily in love as Senzaki, but he doesn't let anyone touch Azusa either.

What if Senzaki tries to hurt Azusa to get back at Karino, will you still like him?

I agree that Senzaki lost it( I can imagine him working as a killer for Karino's family,so maybe he and tatsumi will stay together.....it's a family business XD)
Anyway,I feel bad for him but you can't kill your boyfriend's brother LOL however,he loves Tatsumi and is willing to do anything for him, I hope they get back together.
Now going back to Karino, the only thing I can say is that he is a Boss Ass B*tch.

*I can imagine him working as a killer for Karino's family, so maybe he and tatsumi will stay together.....it's a family business XD)*

I agree! Totally! And everyone lives! :DDD

*Now going back to Karino, the only thing I can say is that he is a Boss Ass B*tch.*

Such an adorable Boss Ass B*tch ;)))

Not necessarily. It makes Senzaki less manipulative, but also more honest. It's more of a personality trait than an indicator of intelligence. Senzaki is smart enough not to buy into the kind of BS many other students do, and he's at least a real bad ass and not a poser like the old delinquent guy. For all we know, he rocks quadratic equations in his head and holds the secret to cold fusion, but instead of talking about it, he's acting out his anger issues and playing sex games with his sub.

Here is the thing: if you feel insecure or less powerful, you are more likely to be indirect and manipulative instead of fighting straight on. If you family and peer group have taught you not to express yourself, you become sneaky. You are more likely to go along with whatever authority says and blame the crappy things you do on society or peer pressure or the fact that someone else told you to do it. On the other hand, if you have no regard for rules or other people whatsoever, you are likely to go too far the other way and place no limits on yourself.

Karino was initially manipulative, bu he made himself strong enough to come at Azusa straight on. It was a game, but Karino is more honest that Kuze because he admits it was a game and he now says he wants Azusa to fight. This tells me Karino is emotionally stronger and more dependable than Kuze--but that Karino may still not be quite strong enough to admit all of his feelings yet.

Senzaki is strong enough to admit all of his feelings. He is strong enough to act on them directly--perhaps too directly. He could use a bit of an internal filter there--or some sort of self-check processes. Parents and special pressure keep just about everybody else in check, but no one checks Senzaki--except for Tatsumi.

"What if Senzaki tries to hurt Azusa to get back at Karino, will you still like him? "

I would not like that action, but (1) I trust Azusa to take care of himself and (2) I would forgive Senzaki if it is clear things are settled and he won't harm my boy. I forgive a frontal attack (if I think the issue is settled). I can forgive someone who can't admit to feelings and goes about things in a crappy way if I see authentic character growth. I will never forgive someone who smiles and claims to love someone but acts emotionally and sometimes physically abusive ways whenever pressure builds up, especially if that person thinks of himself as a good guy who has done nothing wrong.

*It makes Senzaki less manipulative, but also more honest. It's more of a personality trait than an indicator of intelligence.*

He tries to kill his lover's brother - wow, that's honest, and he ends up being dumped - oh yea, intelligence level is overwelming.

*For all we know, he rocks quadratic equations in his head and holds the secret to cold fusion*

We are told that Karino is one of the best students at school, we yet to hear something like about Senzaki.

*if you feel insecure or less powerful, you are more likely to be indirect and manipulative instead of fighting straight on.*

Or you're just smart and smooth, and know how to play the game.

*On the other hand, if you have no regard for rules or other people whatsoever, you are likely to go too far..*

And probably end up in prison some day.

*It was a game, but Karino is more honest that Kuze because he admits it was a game and he now says he wants Azusa to fight.*

Karino knows what's he's doing and he IS playing a game, while Kuze really thinks he's a nice careing person.

*Karino may still not be quite strong enough to admit all of his feelings yet.*

He doesn't have those strong feelings yet, his career is more important for him.

*Senzaki is strong enough to admit all of his feelings*
And we just saw the result of those feelings. While Karino has to push Azusa to fight back, which means Azusa is not eager to do that.

Yeah, IF.. But Azusa is not strong enough to stand against Senzaki.

Azusa is a survivor. He's had grown ass men hitting him when he mouths off to his mom's clients. He doesn't look like it, but he can run really fast. And look at him in the raws--He pushed his way to the front of people watching the fight and blocked the rest out. Near the end, his fists are clenched and he is ready to jump in if needed. I think Azusa would do better than the posers and wannabe delinquents, because Azusa knows what real fights are like. Sure, Azusa may end up running, but he won't get killed.

I thought Azusa and Tatsumi had the high marks (in the top 3 each)? I am sure Karino does well too--but I don't remember his rank. We know Azusa can apply his practical intelligence to the real world because he figured out who took the pictures based on the camera angle. We know Karino can apply political intelligence to the real world, and we know Tatsumi also does in a different way.

We don't know about Senzaki. We don't know if he is smart or in what ways he may be smart or how he may apply it. We know Senzaki is impulsive and aggressive, but that doesn't tell us anything about intelligence. For example, someone with ADD or ADHD can be impulsive and even act aggressively and still have a genius level IQ. I'm not saying that's likely--we just don't know. Maybe growing up in Karino's family teaches kids to apply intelligence in a political way, while growing up in a Yakuza family taught Senzaki that if you are a crazy and dangerous SOB, no one fucks with you. I mean, if you are in the Yakuza, getting a rep as the guy who goes too far may make people leave you alone--it could actually be smart for that situation.

I know Karino's your boy, so you don't like anyone who threatens him. Don't worry--poor loser Karino will have big strong Azusa to save him--for a price. Mu-ha-ha!

I think Senzaki is the only 100% honest character in this story, he loves Tatsumi without any doubt, he's a bad boy and act like himself without submit at the game, he's not stupid but his problem is that is 100% instinct. The difference from Karino is that Karino comes by a family that face troubles with "intelligence", Senzaki comes (for what we know" by a family that face problems with violence. I really wonder how he will react at the Tatsumi "betrayal".

the next chapter will be fire!! *__* I can't wait ç.ç

Oh god, me too! I hope someone will block all the windows :P

*I thought Azusa and Tatsumi had the high marks (in the top 3 each)? *
Never read anything like that.

*I am sure Karino does well too--but I don't remember his rank. *
6th rank.

*We don't know about Senzaki.*
And what we know doesn’t show any sign of intelligence.

*Don't worry--poor loser Karino will have big strong Azusa to save him--for a price. Mu-ha-ha!*

Exactly, even for you that sounds RIDICULOUS ;)

*he's not stupid but his problem is that is 100% instinct*

Those two contradict each other - he's either not stupid or 100% instinct.

Not really. Actually there are different types of intelligence, and "good instincts" can be seen as one of them. Go watch "Finding Dory". It will be good for your black soul. ;-) (That's a joke).

"Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." (Quote often attributed to Einstein--I have no idea where it really comes from).

"Those two contradict each other - he's either not stupid or 100% instinct."
Is true, but is difficult to me explain well what i wanna say :P
I mean that Senzaki has not temper, he's simply catch fire in an istant and then BOOM.
Like Tatsumi says "He's a little crazy, the world that he sees is different from ordinary" because he's an extremist who have a drastic way to deal to EVERYTHING.
I can't relate it to intelligence but more to personality. Karino personality instead is more "functional" due his "coldness". I hope now is more clear

I Tatsumi got the second highest score at one point, but he carefully had some wrong so that his rank would be second to his class king:

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/15/79995bc6984bdaac9c2fc0217143d925.png

Karino congratulates Azusa for being ranked 3rd in 'shis class, and a girl snarks about how Azusa must have played dirty tricks to get that (but I don't necessarily think he did--I think hes actually kind of smart in some ways).

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/15/55efb01d36d1d6c465c12d88504ce6f9.png

As for Senzaki, you are assuming because we don't know that much about a character, he cannot be more than he appears. But we don't know.

I think Senzaki may just be an existentialist. Senzaki is smart enough t o know that you don't have to be afraid of getting hurt. He says, "Pain is proof that you are alive." When Kierkegaard wrote shit like that, they called him a philosopher and published his books. Satre runs around drinking and having sex with his students, and he just says, "“Anything, anything would be better than this agony of mind, this creeping pain that gnaws and fumbles and caresses one and never hurts quite enough.” and people call him a genius. Senzaki may actually cross over into nihilism, except that he loves Tatsumi. This and Senzaki's initial comment that no one lived up to his expectations makes me believe he is a man in search of meaning. He is authentic. He is in the moment and extreme. He is Nietzsche's wet dream. Don't assume he is less because he is passionate and lives in the moment--it may be his thing.

totally agree. there is a fine line between genius and madness and sometimes madness is genius.
Anyway,senzaki represents freedom from all social rules and obligations,he doesn't want to fit in the norm,he just wants to live and love at the fullest. While Karino is very different from him,Karino is machiavellian he has a cynical disregard for morality and a focus on self-interest and personal gain. They are very different so it's useless to compare them. Senzaki wants to be free from the social rules while Karino wants to rule over society.

You like to generalize and assume things and we can through a bunch of aforisms at each other and put a big dot to it by Voltaire's: "Ancient Rome that gave the world a lot of words with a little sense" and it's ok, it's just that geniuses are the separate caste and to be crazy DOESN'T MEAN to be genius. As for Senzaki, the only thing that we know about him for now is that he's crazy and he did extremely stupid thing, and as a result he lost someone he was ready to kill for.

PS I will watch Finding Dory when i feel like it and maybe it will do some good, but as far as I can see it didn't work miracles with your black soul ;) (that's a joke)

It's ok, and I'm not saying that Senzaki is stupid, but I'm yet to see his intelligent side.

*throw

*Is true, but is difficult to me explain well what i wanna say :P*

Ha-ha! English is my second language so I know very well what you mean :D

I am not generalizing--I am making associations and applying outside knowledge. :P

I also like to interpret and sometimes speculate. You can tell when I do that by the context and the use of qualify phrases such as "maybe" and "what if". It's just a way of discussing the story.

To generalize would be to say, "Senzaki is a Yakuza and Senzaki is crazy; therefore, all Yakuza are crazy." What I am saying is his actions fit certain established philosophical frameworks that value passion and authenticity over social conformity or traditional morality. You are free to disagree with my analysis, but the analysis does not contain generalizations. It's based on my interpretation of the text.

If I were arguing that Senzaki must be a genius (which I am not) I would be committing the fallacy of argument from ignorance. But that is not what I am saying. I am saying we don't know much about his intelligence at this point. I am simply unwilling to assume he is stupid simply because he acts on his passions.

Okay :) Ignore the last part of the comment I just made.

*Senzaki is smart enough t o know that you don't have to be afraid of getting hurt. He says, "Pain is proof that you are alive." When Kierkegaard wrote shit like that, they called him a philosopher and published his books. Actually there are different types of intelligence, and "good instincts" can be seen as one of them.*

Just because Senzaki said something that some philosopher might have said doesn't make him smart or genious. So that's an assumption and generalisation. And if you were not trying to say that Senzaki is smart or genious, what WERE you trying to say? That it's a possibility? But this whole thing strarted by me saying that he should "use his brain if he has one" and that FOR NOW I can only say that he did something extremely stupid and lost.

lol a girl on fb wrote "That fucktard actually dared to touch MY Karino" I laughed a bit,you're not alone XDXDXD

Ha-ha-ha! ROFL :DDD

I am saying that some of Senzaki's words and actions fit the framework of existential philosophy and Nietzsche's ideas (Nietzche was actually a bit on the outer edges, but I'm throwing him in with the existentialists). This doesn't automatically mean Senzaki is "smart" or mean that he knows "existentialism" from a whole in the ground, but it does provide a different way of analyzing his actions. The fact that their ideas and quotes fit him so well shows that he is operating differently than some of the others. Therefore, it makes sense to evaluate whatever types of intelligence he may have in terms of his own values and standards, rather than by whether we like his actions. I am giving Senaki credit because, as Tatsumi says, "The world that he sees is different from ordinary."

You say attacking Karino was "extremely stupid"--and I say it may not be, if looked at from a different philosophy. That's all.

PS If you ever see Finding Dory, notice how she uses her instincts as a type of intelligence to compensate for her memory issues (her short-term memory last only 6 seconds). Dory is a character that many may think of as "stupid" but who is actually very smart in a different way than most of the other characters. She also "lives in the moment" (not so much by choice, but by design). She is very passionate in her way (for a fish). But it's easier to give Dory credit for having different types of intelligence because she is successful.

I meant hole, not "whole" . . . er, or maybe it was a philosophical typo. I make many philosophical typos.

Fan challenge: can anyone here get a university professor to accept a paper comparing and contrasting Dory and Senzaki as characters that exemplify existential ideas in modern culture? Bonus if you can successfully argue any typos you made were "philosophical" and should not result in point deductions. Please tell me if anyone writes this paper.

You may try and look at it from whatever point of philosophy or psychology, (or astrology for that matter) you want, but as the result of his actions he lost someone he was trying to hold (by doing that), so no matter how you turn it - that was stupid, since the result is quite the opposite from what he was trying to achieve.

If you define "stupid" as "not achieving the desired result", then you ar right. But much of learning takes place by making mistakes, and the scientific method involves testing hypotheses, not necessarily being right all the time before testing. So, a "result-only" definition of intelligence is not ver useful. If we use a standard definition of intelligence as "the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge and skills", intelligence is not judged by the results alone, but by what is acquired and applied. Senzaki has acquired knowledge and skills in the past that have been working for him up t this point, but that did not work well for him in this particular situation if we judge his goal as te desire for Tatsumi rather than the ability to live freely and authentically. If we grant that he could have two or more goals at the same time, than the most we can say is that he as only partially successful in the way he applied past knowledge and skills to solve his problem. We have yet to see if he learns from this experience.

Learning from experience is a much better indicator of intelligence than results alone.

"The definition of intelligence is controversial. Some groups of psychologists have suggested the following definitions: A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings—"catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do." (wiki)

Senzaki's actions didn't show any of the above until now (unlike Karino btw, who shows all the ablities mentioned above) But even if I go with your little and not the most important part of definition that you offered "the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge and skills - what kind of capacity and knowledge did Senzaki apply and what was the result? Where is the intelligence here?

*Senzaki has acquired knowledge and skills in the past that have been working for him up t this point* - you keep assuming..

*if we judge his goal as te desire for Tatsumi * - that's just obvious, since THAT is what the story tells us, you can't just keep assuming and ignoring the story.

*Learning from experience is a much better indicator of intelligence than results alone.*

And this is most ridiculous - someone who needs years to deliver result doesn't come even close to someone whose intelligence level is so high that he/she can deliver the result right away or quickly.

The definition you suggest may be more inclusive, but it is more support for the idea that judging intelligence based on results alone is inaccurate. Let me try a more concrete approach. I'll agree to your definition of intelligence: "A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience." Note that this includes learning, and not merely being right all the time or obtaing a positive result.

Senzaki quickly learns Tatsumi's kinks. We know that Tatsumi is first attracted to Senzaki when Senzaki is beating up someone else. Senzaki knows that too. When Tatsumi asks Senzaki for the earing for a piercing, Senzaki observes certain things about Tatsumi--one being that Tatsumi is attracted to bad boys. Senzaki experiments and learns Tatsumi is a masochist. Based on Senzaki's subsequent actions, it seems he is able to observe, quickly comprehend complex ideas, and plan based on the information. And it works at that point.

Senzaki learns that Tatsumi likes it when Tatsumi beats up people for him. Tatsumi said, "That guy insulted me." and watched as Senzaki beat the crap out of him. Tatsumi eventually calls it off, but Tatsumi is pretty satisfied by how Senzaki acted. Tatsumi does not indicate he is shocked or upset that Senzaki went too far. Tatsumi merely expresses concern for Senzaki and draws Senzaki's attention to himself. At this point, Senzaki demonstrates the ability to think abstractly by talking about the nature of their relationship and what they would do for each other. Senzaki shows the ability to reason by pushing Tatsumi in ways that others may find crazy (being held out the window) but that Tatsumi responds to. This shows Senzaki thinking at a more abstract level and that there is more going on in his head than may be readily apparent. This whole scene is full of Senzaki's complex and abstract thinking as well as his application of a practical skill set for real world problem solving.

This scene also reveals that Senaki has problem-solving skills that work well for him. We have seen that in the past, beating the crap out of people has solved many problems for Senzaki. He was able to learn from this experience and apply that knowledge to a new situation. That guy was a problem for Tatsumi, and now he never will be again. Problem solved. Senzaki even started offering to show Tatsumi how to beat people up. Teaching a practical skill to other people is a way of reasoning, planning, and solving problems. Senzaki even showed Tatsumi how to "piss" on the fallen enemy to make sure he is never bothered again. That's so tactical planning at work to discourage future problems, right there. By your definition, Senzaki is demonstrating intelligence.

Senzaki fails to accurately assess new information with regards to Tatsumi's relationship with Karino, but to be fair, there was only one incident where Tatsumi protected his brother, and then Tatsumi provided conflicting data as to how he felt about it. You can't always extrapolate from a single data point--that incident might be an outlier. Tatsumi did stop Senzaki fro threatening Karino, but then Tatsumi assured Senzaki that his family did not mean more than Senzaki and the whole second nipple piercing seemed to bind them closer (and give Tatsumi a hard on). Senzaki is not privy to everything the reader knows about Tatsumi or Karino. From Senzaki's POV, using violence was an effective problem-solving tool for him, and Tatsumi seems turned on by violence. Tatsumi hasn't given Senzaki the information he needs to make an accurate assessment.

Senzaki actions showed reasoning and planning. Senzaki assessed information and concluded that Karino was a problem, demonstrating abstract thinking and complex reasoning. Senazaki made plans to solve the problem based on skills hat have worked well for him in the past. Senzaki demonstrates his skills in hunting down Karino and taking decisive action. The results were less than hoped for, but it is easy to miscalculate when you don't have all the data and new factors are introduced. What remains to be seen is what, if anything, Senzaki learns from this.

One instance of misjudging a situation does not necessary mean an action was stupid. Mistakes are a part of learning. The results may not be immediately favorable--but who hasn't caused a few unintended explosions or accidently set some lab equipment on fire? Sometimes important discoveries are made because of mistakes. (Or as Nietzche said, "[O]ne must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."). It is not effective to judge actions based on results alone. We must judge them based on the information available t the person at the time the action was made, and then see if the eron learns from the new data provided.

Ha-ha-ha! I mean I'm sorry you spend so much time writing down something that sounds like: "Senzaki saw that Tatsumi has two legs and bought him two shoes and not three, so he is highly intelligent". But truth is - the only time (for now) Senzaki came across a serious problem was when Karino SAID to Tatsumi (not Senzaki assessed information) that he cannot be with Senzaki. And due to his "intelligence" he "solved the problem" in such a beautiful way, that not only Karino is alive and healthy, but Tatsumi dumps him (and Karino wins in THAT either, since he doesn't want Tatsumi to be with that "intelligent" dude). I don't want to insult Senzaki too much since there is a possibility that in the end he will become Karino's brother in law (and his bodyguard as Kiss suggested), so I hope he will really start using his brain (assuming he has one) and will find a way to fix that extremely stupid thing that he's done. But he should be careful too. Karino can use his brain (as he usually does) and destroy him (though I don't really think that sensei will go that way).

PS Every time you mention Nietzsche it reminds me of a friend of my friend who used to make me laugh by saying something like "this table is not a table - it's an illusion" and I would joke around saying "let me hit your head off this table - I'm sure you will realize how REAL it is" :DDD

I mean I get it - there was time when I was into that stuff too, mostly Schopenhauer though. But come on, it's much more fun to use your own brain and logic to analyze things and matters then to endlessly repeat someone else's words.

You are still focusing only on the results. I don't think you are open to applying tour definition of intelligence to Senzaki's actions because you are upset that he attacked your boy. I get that, I do. I hadn't really thought about how Senzaki might me demonstrating intelligence until you brought it up--but now that I use the definition you provided analyze the story, I see it.

I am not sure any amount of evidence would change your mind. If I say masochism is an example of a complex concept that he quickly understood and "transcendent love" is an abstract idea he expressed, you will dismiss those examples as obvious because you don't value them. If I show you problem solving, you discount it because disagree with his methods. I think you may disregard anything that doesn't fit with your value system.

You are also selling me a bit short, I think. When I use other's words to support my analysis, I am using my own brain. I am just supplying evidence to support my assertions and clarify my point. It's still *my* point. These are my original thoughts. Granted they are not that serious because it's just a chat about yaoi, but the ideas are mine. I am not simply parroting what other people have said.

Without results there is no proof of intelligence. You can scream all you want that you're the smartest person in the world, but unless you can prove it - no one will buy it. Unlike Karino (and not because he's "my boy" and not like I care) who really planned and carried out his plan, Senzaki just did things to Tatsumi and Tatsumi happened to like it. It's not like Senzaki was planning and thinking - he tried, he could fail the same way he failed with Karino. And as I said, I still give him the benefit of the doubt, but untill he proves it in one or the other way, there is no evidence of his intelligence whatsoever.

wow caste heaven is probably the only Yaoi where we can discuss philosophy. ...it's amazing lol Anyway Karino is the type of person who is successful in society and uses the rules to benefit himself,while Senzaki is the rebellious,passionate type(even artistic considering his tattoos and his words of love). They are different,Karino is more like a successful person based on what is considered success in society(which means status and money) he is cold,analitical,knows how to control people and wants power, while Senzaki is more like van Gogh(is just an example,van Gogh is extraordinary and can't be compared) crazy, original in its own way,rebellious and full of passion but who didn't succeed in what was considered success and died as a poor man. But Senzaki from what we have seen could be the same as many other criminals,no one can tell. Some criminals may be intelligent but who knows? They can't prove it and it may be useless.
However, when I asked someone to define intelligence,he simply replied he doesn't know what intelligence is and as such it couldn't be defined. I agree with him.

But the definition of intelligence you provided was not limited to results--in fact, results were not a part of the definition at all. Going by that definition, proof would be evidence of the various items listed in the definition (which I provided). You say experimenting is not planning and thinking. I beg to differ. I think they fit the definition you gave regardless of the results. You will not credit that understanding what another person wants sexually is a type of intelligence (which isn't exactly an argument I made, but okay). Since in yaoi, many semes are magically granted this ability, I won't focus on that, even if I think there is more to it than doing things the other happened to like. I going to take just one of my examples: solving the problem of a guy who was threatening and insulting Tatsumi.

http://iweb6.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/18/92be33c5267b02c7ecaca2b6bc08eaf7.png

This guy wasn't much of a problem yet for Tatsumi, but he could have become one. He and his friends cornered Tatsumi when Tatsumi was alone and they were beeing very threatening and implying rape might occur. Senzaki assessed the situation quickly and planned his actions accordingly. He was not out of control or in a blind rage. His attack was calculated--and punctuate with a speech expressing abstract concepts. Now, my first reaction to at teenager spouting words of transcendent love while beating the shit out of a wannabe rapist is to laugh. I'll grant it's a bit on the melodramatic side. But Senzaki was expressing abstract thoughts on complex topics as well as planning and thinking. The definition doesn't say the ideas have to be certain approved abstract concepts or even proper complex thinking. All it said was abstract and complex. Look at what Senzaki says. It's abstract and complex. Senzaki planned how to kick and hit the guy next. He was thinking when he asked Tatsumi if he's ever beaten anyone up. Senzaki planned how to beat the guy up in a way that would show Tatsumi how to do it. Again, Senzaki is thinking about what he is doing and using it to try to teach Tatsumi. It was all well reasoned as well as an effective method of solving the problem. At the end, Senzaki even thought about the future and had Tatsumi act in such a way as to prevent this guy from ever bothering Tatsumi again. That involves thinking and planning. It's higher order reasoning. It's also crude and violent--but it's evidence of reasoning skills. It's not just what he did, but why he said he did it, and how he did it. Just because he thought quickly doesn't make it less of a thought.

Does it make Senzaki "highly" intelligent? Well, we didn't really establish a scale for measuring intelligence, just a definition, and these acts fit that definition. Senzaki's words in this scene demonstrate abstract thoughts and complex thinking. Senzaki's actions demonstrate planning, quick thinking, and problem-solving skills. You'll notice the definition does not stipulate how serious the problem has to be. It just says "problem solving". Was there a problem? Yes. Did he solve it? Yes. That meets the requirements of the definition. He has demonstrated at least *some* intelligence.

That's a great analogy. :) Van Gough did see the world differently than the rest of us. And you are right: the two characters are very different, so it's a bit like comparing apples to oranges.

For a change of pace, let's apply your definition of intelligence to Karino in a similar scene. When he rescued Azusa from the fat guy, was Karino demonstrating "A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience." Karino didn't get the result he wanted from Azusa (at that time) but I think Karin still showed some intelligence.

Remember this? http://iweb9.mangapicgallery.com/r/newpiclink/caste_heaven/2/3542ebea3a64096474eff3b4abd54eb0.png

I think Karino showed problem-solving abilities. It may be a bit of an assumption to believe Karino came to the bathroom to check on Azusa, but it's not that much of a stretch. Regardless, Karino saw a problem, assessed the situation, and planned his response. Karino purposefully put a foot in the fat guy's face and told him to get lost. This is crude and violent, but effective. Karino used his physical strength and his power as king to make the attempted rapist leave. Again, quick thinking and action. Karino has demonstrated reasoning and applied skills to solve the problem. Karino's words indicated that he was initially hoping for gratitude, and Kario failed to obtain the desired result--but Karino learns from his experience and makes a new plan.

Would you agree that Karino's actions in this scene meet the requirements of demonstrating "intelligence" by that definition?

It's like saying that if a cat needs to pee and can solve that problem, then that cat is a very intelligent creature. If that's what you mean by Senzaki's intelligence - well, I'm sure he can do more than that, but that's a basic instinct. And I don't know about scale, but there are intelligence tests that people have to do to prove themselfs. Those psychologists who gave that definition of intelligence didn't mean it for 3year olds, that's why they didn't have to use thousand words to explain that by problem solving they didn't mean using a bathroom or washing hands (or so I think). By giving examples of that kind of "problem solving" you will come to a conclusion that every living creature is a genious, but that's definitly not the case. And no, I disagree that Karino demonstrates high intelligence particulaly in that moment.

"very" and "high" are your addition. I am simply talking about "intelligence" as opposed to "totally stupid". But yes, the psychologists who define intelligence do mean it for 3-year-olds. If they are trying to measure "IQ" they usually test for performance on standardized tasks involving those skills and account for age of the child in the way IQ is calculated. But we aren't talking about measuring intelligence, merely saying it exists rather than a character or action being completely stupid of devoid of all thought.

Again, I think you are refusing to see how the actions fit the definition because you do not value the type of actions or skill set involved. What Senzaki did was more than use a bathroom (washing hands is intelligent BTW, though it can also be a learned behavior). Even if we ignore the problem solving, Senzaki is demonstrating he is thinking about complex abstract concepts when he discusses his transcendent love. But everything he does is more than habit or simple biological function.

A cat defecating is instinct (or a biological process--burying it is instinct). But if you do not clean the litter box or let them out, it will become creative and start problem-solving. You won't like it, but the cat will assess the situation and make adjustments. It's isn't jus that the cat will go anywhere (unless it is sick). The cat will plan where else it can go, and will either try to hide it or put it someplace you will find it on purpose--say your slippers (because you should clean the damned litter box). This indicates the cat is reasoning.

But a better analogy is the way cats hunt and teach kittens to hunt. If you watch closely, cats are very intelligent in how the plan and apply their skills while hunting. If you doubt this is planned behavior, observe a mother cat bringing a half dead mouse back to kittens. She does this to teach them. It is planned. It involves reasoning and learning. Cats demonstrate "intelligence".

If for you intelligence is washing hands and using a bathroom, as I said, I'm sure he can do more than that, I dare say he can even take a shower. But that's not what we were talking about and I never said that he was completely stupid, but that he has yet to show his intelligent side. But if by Senzaki's intelligence you mean an "inelligence" of a cat (or a chicken for that matter) - it's fine by me, but that's definitely not what I meant by being smart and intelligent.

PS Ever heard of "Brevity is the soul of wit"?

"Ever heard of "Brevity is the soul of wit?"

It was an ironic statement made in Hamlet by a funny character named Polonius who thought of himself as witty, even though he himself was quite long-winded.

Good. Now do you know what people mean by saying that? It means "keep it short".

This is one of Harada's happier works. Maybe happy isn't the right word. But it has more hope than some of her other stories. I'm cheering for Yata-chan.

I've heard a lot of Harada and her works,but Yatamoto is the first manga I'm reading from her. I love how she started it light and then showed the true colors of the story. I particularly like Momo,such a sad character from the beginning (everytime he smiles and uses his body while pretending to be stupid, you can actually feel how broken he is,it's like he stopped fighting and accepted his fate) But anyway,the art,storytelling are amazingly well done. In these types of stories I think there is no true happy ending,I know Yata-chan is the best thing to have happened to Momo,but still I didn't like how he treated him at the start,or how he raped him because he became jealous, how he used him as a sex toy and how he forgets that Momo is person not just a "cute pet". I know it's a yaoi and this is common,but characters like Momo make it hard to simply forget about it.There's no prince for Momo. Maybe it will get better....hopefully.
PS:happier works?? Now I'm really curious lol

*a lot about Harada

I love MOmo too. Did you read Sumomo?

http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/sumomo_harada/mf/c001/

It's not shota. It's Momo before this story. It makes Yata look better (in comparison).

it's about that other guy,suda and momo.....yes,Yata is a lot better in comparison. I haven't read it but I know how the story goes. I just feel so bad for Momo,his story is heart wrenching.

I agreed!

The experiment made by Zimbardo? I'm starting to get curious about this story. In general I avoid the stories set in a high school (with few exceptions)... but this looks interesting

Lady L, this is darker than what I've seen you mention reading, but I like it. It's isn't your average high school yoai. It's a combination of Rashomon, the Breakfast Club and explicit and twisted smut. It's not romantic, but there are relationships and not just porn.

I started interesting at it because the person above mentioned the experiment at the Stanford prison ( Zimbardo). It was a good experiment of social psychology, I studied some of those experiments for an exam at the university. Probably is pretty twisted and disturbing. Do you like Lynch' s movies?

I like some David Lynch. I think that Blue Velvet may have some of the same twisted psychology as Caste Heaven, but Blue Velvet is more surreal and Caste Heaven has none of the film noir qualities you usually admire.

PS I agree with Kiss about how Caste Heaven illustrates principles from the Zimbardo Standford Prison experiment. Additionally, I think the second couple illustrates some learned helplessness and one turn on the cycle of abuse (stopping at a happy resolution stage). Chapter 8 and other points may also echo some of Milgram's work. I think it's one of those stories where if you have taken a psychology class, you see it (but if someone has not, they just enjoy the story).

I prefer Mulholland Drive and Inland Empire ( the part with the anthropomorphic rabbits is really weird) than Blue Velvet. I like surreal things so much. :)

Milgram's work! Even better! Surely I'll give this story a try. Thanks!

I would suggest http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/shiiku_gakari_rika/
beware though,it is extremely twisted and sadistic, it is a perfect depiction of the stanford experiment and the Milgram experiment. The author herself refused to continue the manga since she started feeling bad and I would say,even disgusted. So read to your own consequences XDXDXD Caste Heaven is much more pleasant to read.

Question didn't the people who did the experiment have to get help after it was done. and 2) Is this the shock experiment you are refering to.

By today's ethical standards, neither Milgrim nor Zimbardo could repeat those experiments. (Yes, Milgram was the one where someone in a lab coat told participants to shock a confederate who pretended to be in pain and who said he had a bad heart). Both people who were abused in the Stanford experiments and participants who found out they could go along with abuse and even start abusing when prodded had issues after the experiments (not every participant, but enough to make it a problem). No one really wants to find out that kind of thing about themselves.

Thanks for you recommendation, I like to analyze stories. I'll give that story a try, even if I get disgusted.(≧∀≦)

Do you know that I find this story really interesting? Thanks for talking me about it. This story uses the same yaoi tropes in a different and original way. There are so many fascinating things that I found in this manga: good plot- it remembers me somehow "A clockwork orange" (film and novel), "Carrie"by B. de Palma, the identification with the aggressor (psychodynamic and psychoanalytic definition), behaviorism (learned behavior),social studies and experiments... and last but not least something related with one of the mangas that I loved the most in my life- "Oniisama", a yuri-shoujo story set in an exclusive high school for girls where you can find almost everything: bullying, drugs addiction, suicidal impulses, health problems, incestuous desires, and so on. (≧∀≦) Thanks again!

and yes,I was screaming "Azusa!!!" Karino knows that he loves my babe Azusa,stop denying it XDXDXDXD

I hope you are right. Azusa is still my boy. Tatsumi is just my side guy.

I think it's more like he loves him, but not as much as to risk his career for him, not yet. I think something should happen to change that and maybe when Senzaki tries to use Azusa to get at Karino, instead of helping Senzaki, Azusa will help Karino, and that might become the turning point in their relationship. Senzaki needs help, but the ones that can get close to Karino are his brother and Azusa. Tatsumi will refuse, so Azusa is the only one who can do that.

Well, I know that sensei will fool me once again, but people can dream, right? :)

U person. I like ur brain and the way u think, its great

Why, thank you! (//▽//)

I noticed one thing. Tatsumi's story is a flashback,remember when karino kissed azusa after azusa had been beaten? Karino said "it is funnier this way",Atsumu told him it was boring not having someone to love........so Karino wanted to play the lover part? Lol it's like a puzzle,everything starts to complete itself. Maybe karino enjoyed that kiss and changed his attitude a little,Tatsumi noticed sth and ruined it by bringing azusa to karino's house.

*^* *^* *^* *^*

Is that gum?! Omg omg thank you so much!! If Azusa acted like that to Karino when he was king, it's no wonder that Karino wanted to bone him. Man Azusa was such a flirt without realizing it. Or maybe he was doing it on purpose?? And

Beautiful.

More: http://distantattraction.tumblr.com/post/144932216608/im-trying-to-get-less-illiterate-in-japanese-so

Is it me, or is Karino's karma petty?

What do you mean by karma being petty?

OMG!!!the last one is DAMN!!!! This is getting soooo good
ahaha yes, Karino's karma is petty,it seems like that guy never forgets what happened. Poor Azusa,but anyway,we know why he's doing it.....he has always liked azusa physically,now let's hope he's not only after his body (≧∀≦)

I know,azusa was flirting so hard *^* I like how azusa and karino had a "close" relationship back when azusa was the king,compared to how azusa treated the others or how lonely he was,his relationship with karino is much closer

I was dying to know what they're saying, thanks alot for the link!

I'm not sure what you mean by "petty karma", but if you mean that his revenge is petty, I disagree. It is cruel, but that's not the same. Instead of being thankful, when Karino was kind and "devoted" to him, Azusa was provoking Karino and thinking he was using him. Now Karino is the one who is using Azusa. But it's not revenge Karino is driven by. He likes Azusa, but he likes to play it rough. And probably his being nice to Azusa was part of his game too. "How I obeyed you before and how I destroyed you, its all for my pleasure". As for that chewing gum thing, It was hot and cool. My favorite part is "chew on it" :)

They are no angels, both of them, and they are perfect for each other. Maybe Karino was the first one to realise that, but seeing how Azusa was seducing him..hard to tell..

yumyum ⁄(⁄ ⁄·⁄ω⁄·⁄ ⁄)⁄

Oh, Azusa was definitely flirting with the gum. Remember that from Azusa's POV (and maybe Karino's), people were either users or used. Karino was acting like a suck up. If that were Karino's true self, then such a person seemed to enjoy being dominated that way--some people are into that. Certainly there was no cause to be "grateful". Either Karino was trying to play Asuza (he was) or he enjoyed being treated like a dog--in which case Azusa was only giving him what he wanted.

I think in general Karino's revenge/switch goes much farther than anything Azusa did to him, but that's not what I mean by petty. In this particular case, I found the original gum teasing to be kind of hot, but sticking gum on Azusa's nipple with a reference to the past did nothing for me. One was done in a teasing, sexy way. The other was just to rub Azusa's face in it. The second teasing lacked...I'm not sure how to say it, but it seemed like something your little brother would do if he had a chance. I'm not finding the right words here so I'll stick with petty. Still, Asuza tied up was hot.

You know my personal take on Karino is that I would like to see that he has feelings outside of the game, but that he might be doing exactly what he says: killing time before he graduates and has to be what is daddy made him. I want for you to be right. I just don't see it yet.

I agree that it's nice that they had UST (unspoken sexual tension) all along--and that even as a toady, Karino was always by Azusa's side. I like the flirtiness of it--cruel or not.

We know that Karino was playing Azusa, and Azusa knows it too (now), but back then he didn't know that. What if Karino was nice to Azusa because he liked him and wanted to be appreciated by him? Is that how you treat someone who is nice to you? Being rude and trying to use that person? I find what Karino did with the gum totally cool, while what Azusa did not so much - flirting hard with a guy who likes you and doing a girl almost in front of him? Imagine if in place of Karino was Atsumu? Would you call him a kind person or a suck up? I mean, the only reason we don't sympathise with Karino is because we know what happend next and that Kari was playing Azu.

What I find petty and childish is that cheat-sheet trick Azusa tried to pull. Probably at this point Azusa is not part of Karino's plans outside the game, but I think it will change eventually (Azusa is paying high price for that, but that's Karino for you). Well, one thing's for sure - with Ogawa sensei you never know what happens next. We can keep guessing though ;)

Karino's motives are a mystery. I would say that in that school, and particularly for that couple, that is exactly how you treat someone who likes you and shows it by acting servile. Maybe Karino had real feelings from the start--maybe not. You may think Asuza deserved to have gum mockingly stuck to his nipple (that's fair) but was it sexy? It's a matter of personal taste but I thought Asuza's joke was sexy. I also find his naked chest sexy, so there is that. I guess there is something or everyone in CH if you keep reading.

As for Atsumu, I didn't like him at first. I think he is way too wimpy and that he is the sort of dead weight I may have felt obligated to protect, but who I would always wish would get a backbone. Atsumu grew on me a little bit when he tried to stand up for Asuza, but then he bought into the huge pile of crap Kuse told him in chapter 9 and smiled. I like Atsumu slightly better than Kuze, who I think is abusive as hell, but I see Atsumu as someone who needs help, not as someone I would want to spend time with or emulate. One thing though, Atsumu was not emotionally masochistic enough to suck up to Azusa when Asuza had power. Even stupid "I'll believe anything a hot guy tells me" Atsumu knew better than to try to toady to Azusa as a way of getting Asuza o like him.

Karino is too smart to think sucking up would work for a guy like Azusa. I think Karino would have found Asuza "unworthy" if Azusa had fallen for it. I'm not sure though. I think Karino knows that the only thing Azusa respects is power. My question is whether Karino was wearing a mask only when he was being the loyal dog or whether Karino is also wearing a mask now, because this new mask keeps Azusa engaged.

there's no doubt that karino always played the part of the loyal follower. He admitted it when he had a conversation with tatsumi calling him boring and saying that he wanted to have some fun. There's no way Karino had innocent feelings or thoughts about Azusa,karino is the top ass of the game XDXD I simply like it how Azusa was the naive one,in chap 1 he said to karino "why did you do this to me?" he didn't expect that and was disappointed in a way(even karino said to him later "I didn't expect you to be so naive" talking about tatsumi) . They clearly had a "controversial" friendship(there was always something more to it) Azusa never played with other guys the way he played with Karino,they were always together even the short guy in the extra was jealous because he couldn't get near Azusa as Karino could. They are made for each other,Karino always liked Azusa and enjoyed playing his little game,while Azusa has always been attracted to Karino even if he didn't realize it before,azusa seems to be comfortable around Karino....in chap4 he got so comfortable than totally forgot about his revenge and actually wanted a real relationship with Karino,but that visit to karino's house totally ruined it. And I believe Tatsumi has something to do with it(karino was getting softer and it was becoming like a real relationship) but Tatsumi warned him to stay away from Azusa because he is not good for him,so yeah,I think tatsumi did it on purpose and probably had a little conversation with karino. He knows about azusa's pride and how much damage that visit would do to their relationship.


Oh and yes,that scene with azusa was hot,I believe karino enjoyed it and was thinking on how to get his "revenge" soon (▰˘◡˘▰)

it's clear that in that school they are fucked up XDXD But Azusa is the one I like the most,he has suffered more than the others yet he remains who he is. Also he isn't a bad guy,he simply plays the role like a real tsundere(the scene with his mother was touching,also the way he remained strong and assured tatsumi that everything was ok,or when he thanked him). Karino likes his strong side,but he hasn't seen the real azusa yet....so I'm waiting for that moment ç.ç I've been waiting a year for that,ah it's frustrating >.< Anyway,azusa wasn't innocent,but something tells me Karino liked it that way XDXD

I agree that seeing Azusa with his mother gave us insight into who he really is. The scenes with Karino and Tatsumi do not do as much--though they are better than nothing. I would love to see something that shows us who Karino really is.

*the scene with his mother was touching, also the way he remained strong and assured tatsumi
I mean Kusakabe not tatsumi ^^'

yes,we need more about karino,anyway it is better than nothing. What I got from it is that Karino has to follow the rules of his family,has always been arrogant,doesn't care about anyone,loves power,has a strong obligation towards his family but yet,he likes to rebel. If only he had the same devotion toward azusa...*fangirl mod* XDXD Anyway,he has the perfect attitude to protect azusa and help him change his life,if only he wanted >.> while azusa is perfect for him since he easily brings out Karino's real personality and also breaks his coolness, they complete each other in a twisted way

My favorite is Karino:) So even when I find his actions a little too cruel and I feel sorry for Azusa, I can't shake that "I adore that guy" feeling. I'm dreading the moment when karma will get him too, really hope that won't happen and he will just become a little jentler (not too much though, I like him the way he is, I dont want him to become a softy), but again, this is Ogawa we talking about, anything is possible.

BTW, do you know if those scenes are from a new chap or some extra?

I think the tweet indicated it's an extra. But I don't really know.

Cards on the table (so to speak), my fav is Azusa. As long as your boy manages to be something Azusa kind of wants (at least for revenge), I'll wait and see before hating him. (●'◡'●)

Why, thank you! At least you're giving him a chance XD Knowing how much he is hated by the most of the readers, I'm seriously worried about him, dont think sensei would want to rewrite another chapter.

About the revenge though..◔_◔

Revenge? Sensei probably won't indulge me, but just imagine Karino tied up naked while Azusa teases and power-bottoms his way over every inch of Karino. Who's the king now, baby? Who's the king now?

Hmm..I think I won't mind that.. I might even like that..I might like that a lot..I kind of insist on that..I DEMAND! Now Im craving that (￣ ;￣)

Holy shit that would be so hot. I literally just had an orgasm thinking about that. It would be funny if Azusa tops Karino tho. XD

No. No topping Karino (╬⓪益⓪)

yeah I can't imagine it too, Karino being toped

I don't hate karino,hate is a strong word. Chap8 broke my heart though,and I don't want to see azusa suffering. However,I ship them those 2 are made for each other,if Karino becomes gentle with azusa I'll totally freak out from happiness XDXDXDXD

omg I like where this is going,I like it a lot (づ￣ ³￣)づ

I'm happy to hear that, it's refreshing, but most of Azusa fans are hating on Karino so much they wish him dead (!) and ship Azusa and Atsumu (oh, dear..) Somehow they ignore the fact that Azusa himself is into Kari and doesn't give a hoot about Atsumu ¯_(ツ)_/¯

He pretended to be his follower for a long time being the twisted seme he is, i won't surprised if he has every little detail noted down in his journal(s). Hahaha ...


But damn. xD

You like Karino? I'm hoping Senssei totally breaks the relationship rules and Senzaki kills him, frankly. :D