Jajshwjajdjsja's Topics (5)

umm yes, we clearly have a preference, and thats not the same as hating switch or anything, I would totally read switch if it makes me think I would love that (TToTT)

One of my favourite type of stories to read are selfish dom tops taking advantage/being abusive of the bottom. DW, I know my type of fiction, it's basically non-con fiction with strict top/strict bottom.

Well, non consensual stuff (whatever that is, I have lots of lines of what that is though, lots of more horrific stuff out there.) that's only being done to a specific fictional character who I like.

Sometimes I do like the specific fictional character I like, also doing horrific stuff to other characters though? This one isn't it, oh well.

Nvm, I'd like for Enzo's ____ to be _______ too.

first of all, everyone and their mothers cared, and a lot of people said they were going to drop this title after lorenzo forced himself on adrian.

feelings and preferences aside, the author has already laid the groundwork for their dynamic with those earlier rough chapters, and now the two of them are only just starting to build trust and show vulnerability. having adrian top at this point would throw a wrench into that emotional progression. i know that may be a non-issue in other titles, but i think it'd require this story to spend more time rebuilding what they've only just started to establish, and afaik the author said bad apple would be shorter than red candy, so we don't really have the luxury of time.

maybe once they're in a better place, i could actually see vers working. but honestly, i just don't see it happening in the next few chapters without turning this into slop, given the direction the author is taking (◞‸◟；)

that said, i'm more than happy to be proven wrong as long as the vers/switching is written well, because i love bad apple way too much and i don't wanna see it being reduced to slop ദദ╥ ᴗ ╥)

It doesn't make sense at all! This isn’t about Enzo and more about Rian. Enzo might even be willing to bottom, or not, just to mess with Rian... he's that twisted. The thing is that Rian's character is at a crucial point. If he's able to top even THAT after everything, there's really no reason for him to change his preference, especially since his previous experiences bottoming were shit... both times!

I expected Enzo to be the one to develop meaningful feelings first, which would lead him to respect Rian. But he seems too detached and pessimistic. He just now realized that Rian kissing him like that their first time wasn't purely performative, and it was because he really enjoys kissing! On the other hand, Rian has started to see Enzo as a real person, so if that certain experience doesn't improve, all the buildup to this point feels meaningless. Why even put them through that?!!!

The people I’m referring to are the people who have no gripes with how rian was treated but now have a problem with it because they can’t stand the idea of couples being vets cus it doesn’t fit in their narratives of gay relationships. And your own comment about how lots of people said they were going to drop it is why I’m so sure about these people in my original comment, cus the people who did drop this were the ones who had a Robles with how tian was treated and would also have a problem with enzo being treated TAHT while. While the ones who are still actively reading are majority hating on enzo bottoming because they have a preference but refuse to admit it and instead claim it’s because they somehow don’t want him to be treated the exact same way as he treated rian, showing they are majority hypocritical. Obviously not all ppl who want rian to only be a bottom are being hypocrite, like I don’t think you are, but as you said a good majority of people who did dislike rian being assaulted proceeded to drop this, so this implies the people who didn’t drop it but do have a problem with enzo bottoming, are annoyed with enzo bottoming not because of the fact that it wouldn’t be something he enjoyed/likely assault, but because they do not want to admit they simply don’t want him to bottom and instead make up hypocritical excuses of not wanting enzo to be forced while simultaneously ignoring and having no care for when it happened to rian. Also sorry if I repeat myself a lot it’s just how I talk tbh

You're not superior for wanting a switch couple dude lol, I'm so tired of switchers/vers acting this...

First of all this isn't meant to portray a realistic relationship, we're dealing with a mafia boss here and the other character is a spy lol;

Second, having preferences for FICTIONAL CHARACTERS doesn't translate to real world. If you're reading this you should be an adult and know how to discerne this type of thing;

Third, just because someone doesn't want a FICTIONAL couple to switch doesn't mean they're against switching in general. I've personally LOVED some switch stories like Neko to Neko or Thirst, but there are some couples, like this one,where I prefer a fixed dynamic.

Fourth, even gays irl have sexual preferences, so this discussion is moot to begin with.

There's nothing wrong with liking a fixed dynamic, but ppl who act superior because they don't prefer it are annoying. You do you, we do us

hmm interesting... i never saw enzo that way. i think we're just focusing on different parts of his character. i see someone who's clinging to control, while you see someone who's twisted enough to use bottoming to mess with adrian... i think that's where we differ. what doesn't make sense to you about my interpretation is exactly what doesn't make sense to me about yours. for someone so desperate to stay in control, i just can't picture enzo willingly giving that up at this point.

as for adrian:
i actually think adrian is empathetic enough to put his own wants aside for now because he is starting to understand where lorenzo is coming from.

i also agree that this is a crucial point for adrian's character. it's just that, i don't think he'd force the issue *just because he can* yes, even after everything. so this ch actually made me feel the opposite. after seeing lorenzo's scars + recalling their previous conversation, it felt like adrian finally realized lorenzo is just trying to survive in the only way he knows how. and for me, that's why he backed off and decided against topping at this point... is how im seeing it. but he still wants to shag the guy.

i don't think either of us is necessarily wrong, we're just working with different character interpretations. i have my biases but i could genuinely see either one being right depending on where the author takes enzo. looking forward to the next chapter either way!!! ₍ᐢ. .ᐢ₎ ₊˚⊹♡

erm, yeah, i'm not really on either "team" here. i'm just discussing the plot and what i think fits the characters at this point in the story. that's all i'm trying to say.

that and i agree with @luluroma

I really appreciate both of your analyses; they're really fascinating! I agree that we have differing opinions on some points, but for the most part, I find your arguments to be valid. However, I don't think Enzo is as rigid as you suggest. If someone is too obsessed with control, that can be a weakness in itself. Sometimes, it’s necessary to relinquish control to manipulate your opponents, like how Enzo tolerated those old guys at the Consortium because he intended to kill them and take their money anyway!

And while I argue that he’s twisted enough to go that far, I don’t think that Enzo would actually bottom at this point. I argued that it wouldn’t make sense for Rian’s character development. Also, because of the feelings Rian's developing through his empathy, he's not gonna treat Enzo like a plaything. He just saw the humanity in him.

I think Enzo might eventually want to bottom willingly, but only once he has real feelings for Rian and begins to appreciate him as an equal. Right now, Enzo sees Rian as entertainment, or at best, an asset. Even now, he's playing, even if it seems he's bargaining or distracting Rian, while Rian is the one who has something to prove here. First, he's not a pushover; second, he's not as cruel as Enzo.

This was nice, loved this chat~

And vice versa you are not superior for wanting a top bottom couple and I’m so tired of people like you acting like this. Firstly I’m fully aware this is a fictional couple, they are characters on a screen. Secondly to act as though real life preferences don’t have any influence on preferences for “FICTIONAL CHARACTERS” is also a “moot point” because they can have no influence or full influence or fully inbetween, it all depends on the people and situation, so you making this point is silly because the exact opposite of your claim is also true. Third, I never claimed the people I’m referring to hate all switching, I’m claiming they are hypocritical for hating the idea of these “FICTIONAL CHARACTERS” potentially switching, more specifically I have been consistently talking about the people who dislike the idea of enzo bottoming because they think it is forceful while ignoring how rian was in the exact same scenario, which if you had not decided you were “superior”, you might have noticed this as it’s the only point I am criticising these people for. Forth, obviously gays irl have a pretences, and this is once again a silly point as you claim “ preferences for fictional characters doesn’t translate to the real world, meaning somehow all these gay people irl who have a perfrence for being a top or a bottom or verse, have never managed to prefer the same relationships they have irl, in these fictional stores.

Pulling on from that, are you even the actual group of the people I’m referring too?? I’ve been talking about a certain group of people, not all people who prefer non verse couples, majority of stuff I read and prefer are with top/bott couples. I’ve read through lots of comments who also prefer top/bott dynamics LIKE ME, that I think are non hypocritical points like someone said Enzo is a pretty boy and they dislike the idea of stereotypical bottom has to be pretty, which is a valid idea at least to me.

So genuine question, are you one of the people I was talking about, because if you aren’t one of those people who is perfectly okay with one character getting assaulted but not okay with it now that it doesn’t fit your narrative, why are you so mad and defensive?
Like at least to me it doesn’t seem you are one of those people because you aren’t defending the assault, but at the same time in all 4 of your points you didn’t seem to respond to my point of hypocrisy or assault so now I’m confused on if you feel offended because you are one of those people or simply because you jumped the gun the second you saw someone preferring this couple to be switches?

Also final NEKO TO NEKO IS PEAK EVERYONE READ IT. ALSO SHAMLESS PLU READ SPINACH BOUQUET (actually now TAHT I’m thinking about it it’s been a while since I read this one so I can’t remember everything maybe hold off on that one just incase)

oh, i'm not trying to box him into a rigid archetype. i just meant that's where i think he is at this point in the story. he's still struggling with control, which is why i kept emphasizing "at this point." bec i think most of the comments are about switching next chapter and to me, it just doesn't quite fit *yet*.

right now, enzo's trying so hard to maintain this perfect image (cue the flashbacks to his grandfather as well), so i don't think he's there emotionally just yet. but i'm sure learning to relinquish that control and become more vulnerable and allowing rian to see him undone will be part of enzo's character development.

and as with earlier comments i've made here, i could definitely see switching happening like you said, but only once enzo genuinely wants to and they've reached a better place in their relationship. *and just to be clear for OP, that doesn't dismiss what happened to rian. it already happened. i'm just talking about where i think the story goes from here.

honestly, it was really refreshing seeing someone explain their character interpretation so thoughtfully. it reminded me that we're all kind of at the mercy of the author here, and the possibility that i might end up being wrong honestly excites me more.

i really enjoyed this discussion too. thank you!! ₍ᐢ. .ᐢ₎ ₊˚⊹♡

it's fine it's really like i can hear you talking i hope you catch your breath you pulled zero stops and periods bro i had to read it like 10 times ꉂ(≧▽≦) but okay, i think i get what you're saying... basically, you're talking about the people who were quiet when rian was forced to bottom and only started caring once it was enzo who might end up in that position, and now oppose enzo bottoming because they say they don't want him to be assaulted, when the real reason is they just want him to keep topping / or they are fine if it keeps happening to rian ∘ ∘ ∘ ( °ヮ° ) ? if that's what you mean, then yeah, i can definitely see how that would be problematic. i'm just trying to help clear it up for everyone here, who may or may not have misinterpreted you ∘ ∘ ∘ ( °ヮ° ) ?

Wow, this was really amazing! Thank you~
I'm excited too. The next chapter, or the one after that, lol, will clarify many things!

Ah Dw this comment was replying to another person so pls don’t feel targeted by anything I said. Also yeah you completely understood the type of ppl I was talking about that’s why if anyone else sees my original comment pls only reply if it’s to someone else like how this commenter had a conversation about analysing the characters or if you are one of the people I am talking about cus if not im ngl I don’t really care what you are saying unless it’s specifically from people who think like the people I was describing.

PREACH! Nowhere in your original comment did you even imply that verse was morally superior, that response to you was truly wild. Tbh those who prefer fixed top/bottom positions are the ones acting morally superior honestly atp. 95 percent of BL stories have fixed positions and these BL fans have a disheartening attitude of trying to shut down convos whenever actual gay versatile men like me are asking for verse visibility. Like literally 95 percent of BL stories have fixed top/bottom relationships! I am glad you spoke up.

And as a verse guy, I ALSO love my power bottom relationships, and even the traditional strong top weak bottom story - I never stick to reading only verse stories. However, I will never stop asking for visbility in the stories, even if it is 'annoying' - I think the public can handle seeing comments asking for more representation. Thankyou for speaking up...

It's actually more about how people act, the way people talk Abt some stuff be straight, bl, gl, verse, you will indeed find people who sound that way (like nobody is gonna say I am superior but the way they sound will make you feel that way)

Also I understand how it feels to be represented and wanting to be represented is totally fine and wanting verse is also fine. But the thing is constantly commenting wanting verse in a show that has been clearly mentioned not to be is too much cuz if it were me I would politely leave or stay quiet so I don't ruin the fun of other people. But I guess it's too much for me to ask for others to do the same.

I understand how you feel. It's hard for me to stay objective and silent after I have seen my favourite versatile BL fic writers/fan artists lock their social media accs because of fixed position BL fans harrassing them and sending them death threats even though the BL industry caters to fixed positions. :/

When the minority doesn't have a safe place in common media where they are truly visible and normalized just like the majority, unfortunately the minority won't stay silent. Social media comments are they only place they can spread awareness.

Sure, the author won't see, but some future authors or fic writers will see the demand for verse and one day they may write their own story. I know I have. Spreading awareness can be inconvenient and annoying, unfortunately, that's the only way progress can happen. When you create a safe space and representation for minorities, then only things can change.

Look at Red Strings Quest. It features a very pretty top and a tanned muscular bottom - both have same height and similar build. Nobody in the comments is asking them to switch. Bad Apple has a different ambiguous uncertain vibe which is why some people subconsciously want them to switch. If the story presents a certain vibe and the atleast a few people pick up on that vibe - it's not an accident and it's totally fair for ppl to comment on it.

Ofc, disrespectful people who send threats or are rude from both sides should never be tolerated. Everyone is allowed to have their preferences and we should all have constructive conversations.

I wanted to talk more last night, but I was just too sleepy. Sorry~

Regarding this part, 'allowing rian to see him undone will be part of enzo's character development.' You're suggesting that Enzo isn't ready to relinquish control because his character development isn't there yet. While I don't see him as much of a control freak, I also believe it doesn't make sense for their positions to switch right now. I really think their next time should still have Enzo as the top and Rian as the bottom, which we both agree on.

Their experiences together so far have been terrible! While Rian was an unwilling party both times, the second time was even worse. The first time was about lust, excitement, and, taking Enzo's words for it, adventure. But the second time was planned, cruel, and dehumanizing. I think this is where the author is putting them: Enzo's detachment from his own humanity leads him to dehumanize Rian, while Rian's empathy compels him to humanize Enzo and see him as a person.

So, changing their positions now wouldn't put a dent in that. If that were to happen, either Rian would have to be cruel, which I don't see happening, and would be entirely pointless anyway. I mean, what would be the point of that?! Alternatively, Rian could be a gentle top, guiding Enzo through it, but that wouldn’t make sense either. Enzo’s already bored and obviously needs more stimulation to feel anything. And while I agree that Rian should be teaching him, I don't think anyone truly learns while being in the passenger seat; you need to be in the driver’s seat to get a real feel for things.

So, I think considering Enzo's perfect image, which is the farthest thing from the truth and merely a product of his grandfather's influence, he actually needs to let go of some control and come undone soon, but not by changing position at this point. He should give control to someone who really understands his shortcomings. He needs to become a real person, but not only in Rian's mind. Whereas for Rian, he needs to have a positive experience as a bottom. If he ends up topping or going through another horrible experience, it would make more sense for him to just shoot Enzo and be done with it!

I've gone through many comments and your take is the one I agree with the most as it is very convincing, speaking as someone who saw them as a potential for verse. This is because you speak about the characters from a psychological standpoint and I can visualise from your explanation that the positions correspond to where the characters are at mentally.

Thank you, I have no idea where they got this superiority idea from , and you explained it perfectly, by logic if majority of BLs are fixed positions (WHICH I LOVE SO MANY OFF THESE WITH BOTH NON TRAD AND TRAD LOOKS), it implies the amount if vers fans are significantly smaller than top/bott fans, meaning the commenter must have been absolutely digging through comments to find vers enjoyers who are pretentious because there are simply not enough vers BLs to suggest that there is a large enough audience if vers enjoyers, who are superior enough to demand more media based around these preferences.

Thank you~ I read your comments as well, and they helped me gain a better understanding of why people ask for things in that way. It seems for some, it is ultimately more about reality than it is about fiction.

Personally, I am more intrigued by the fictional aspect. I really enjoy psychoanalyzing characters. While most of the time this leads to accurate predictions, it's not always reliable because the author's humanity (and marketing) plays a bigger part!

That’s the thing, my original comment was digging on a certain group of people who justify their hate for vers couples through hypocritical ideas, that shows they don’t actual care for actions of assault as long as it fits their preferred narrative. Never did my comment attack all people for enjoying this story, I think majority of other people should continue to enjoy this story. I don’t see why I should quiet down or leave when the only fun I’m ruining is for people with a poor mindset. Why is the comfortabilty of these people put above other people? Because I understand where you are coming from if I attacked all people, but I didn’t, some people saw me defending vers couples and decided it was a personal attack on them without even reading my points because they are too blind sided by their hatred for vers couples.

And regardless of all that stuff, while I understand the author may have already said something-I can’t remember if they did or If im just remembering Somones comment- its showing constantly that Rian has had multiple relationships where he is not receiving, and the first time he did receive was forced and uncomfortable, as well as the fact that he shows a strong attraction to enzo, to people with some media literacy, this would imply it is possible for rian to want to top, his preferences didn’t just magically change after bottoming one time, especially when it wasn’t the best sex he’s ever had. Regardless I will continue to read this story because I enjoy it, but if comments about people wanting them to switch make you uncomfortable, and ruin the fun, maybe you should re-evaluate how you think because to me it sounds like plain hatred.

Lastly, it is too much to ask others to do the same, why should people hide their thoughts for you? Especially when their thoughts and pretences are under represented. Somones comments about what they would like to see in fictional media should not make a story ruined for you, if it does you might be a bit sensitive.

I wrote a massive comment to you and SOMONE else but I think they got deleted but regardless I just wanted to say you explained everything perfectly, thank you.

Of course everything you said is valid but the thing is just as u said people don't ask for switch in red strings quest but ask for that on bad apple even though they have similarities that's cuz there's something about Enzo and Rian in the air about two bad boys with power play and equal footing and it's the very reason why people wants a fixed role cuz we have not got any other work giving us something like this before. And I genuinely feel like it's not the same reason why some people want verse, some clearly wants to see Enzo being bottom just cuz he is pretty but anyone who understands this story will say his personality just does not fit for a bottom and making so won't be that fun anymore.

And I am actually that miserable person who hardly finds something that aligns with what I want and finally bad apple appeared, its like the PEAKEST thing I could ever ask for, and it means so much to me cuz hardly any media moves me and thinking about bad apple keeps me alive, I finally feel like I am getting what I want after so many years but people keep on asking for something different constantly when this story is not about want and it kind of feels disrespectful towards the writing itself .

i think i get where we differ now. i actually agree with most of what you said, and i think we're much closer in our interpretations than i initially thought. i think we're just looking at where both enzo and adrian currently are in their respective character arcs a little differently.

i completely agree that enzo eventually needs to let go of that need for control and become more vulnerable. i just think he's only beginning to get there. because of that, i still believe switching right now would put a dent in both his and adrian's progress. not because switching itself is a bad thing, but because i think it would ask too much of both characters before they've reached that point naturally. the story is finally letting them meet each other where they are, and i don't think either of them is emotionally ready for a shift that big just yet.

i think your own points support why i feel that way. like you said, if adrian topped right now, either he'd have to be cruel, which would be completely out of character, or he'd have to be the gentle, patient top, which also doesn't really fit because enzo is someone who constantly chases stronger stimulation. but i would be open for pleasant surprises because i'm sure these two aren't the only possibilities for rian topping.

the only part i wasn't sure i understood was when you mentioned rian teaching enzo soemthing. did you mean teaching him to bottom? i think we both don't see the story heading im that direction right now. but i wanna say i actually think adrian can teach enzo something much more important while still bottoming.

i think over the next few chapters, adrian is going to teach enzo what intimacy actually looks like. after everything enzo put him through, the fact that adrian is still willing to approach him with empathy instead of cruelty will probably be a meaningful scene to enzo far more than switching positions ever could.

i also think enzo is already beginning to change, even if it's subtle like in the last chapter, him hesitating before grabbing adrian's collar, and the vivian stint where he's been listening to adrian more than he probably realizes. even the way adrian outplayed him at the end of ch 36, as twisted as that whole situation was, earned a bit of enzo's respect. when comparing this to how he was at the beginning, with zero tolerance for defiance, although subtle, that's already a significant shift to me.

i also want to make it clear that i don't see adrian as fodder for enzo's development. this is def as much adrian's character arc. after those horrible experiences, i think his development is about choosing how he wants to move forward. not because he has to, but because that's the kind of person he is. to me, choosing to try again with enzo on his own terms says much more about his growth than proving he can top.

when you said "enzo's detachment from his own humanity leads him to dehumanize rian, while rian's empathy compels him to humanize enzo" (love that btw), i think that's exactly why i believe adrian will continue bottoming for now. in the coming chapters, i don't think his role is to teach enzo how to bottom. it will be how to be someone's partner and show him what genuine human intimacy looks like.

so yes, enzo eventually needs to let go of that perfect image and become vulnerable. i just think he's already standing right at the edge of that change, and because both of their developments are still so fragile, i don't think this is where the author would introduce switching.

i think we actually agree on a lot more than we disagree on. we both expect the next chapter to go the same way, we just have slightly different readings of where enzo and adrian currently are. i just hope the author stays true to their characters, whichever direction they decide to take.

I am not hating and simply sharing my opinion just how u are sharing ur opinion, that's all

Yeah, I think we're getting there, but this: 'I don't think either of them is emotionally ready for a shift that big just yet.' I kinda disagree. That change would be too much for Rian, because he is already in a vulnerable place, but Enzo can bottom without being vulnerable. Again, I'm not saying he would, but he totally could without feeling the same gravity Rian felt. He's too detached right now to even consider that as letting go. It could be just another game he plays. He doesn't feel any guilt for what he did to Rian or anything else. He goes around killing people for little scratches. He's practically a psycho! And funny enough, he has control, but eventually it's not about control. I guess that's where it becomes confusing.

But no, haha, I definitely didn't mean that when I said teaching him. Rian still needs to learn that himself, haha. The teaching is more about connection than it is about positions. Yeah, intimacy~

Rian's character is so connected to the world. I think that's probably why so many felt insulted when a character who's so relatable was wronged in such a way. It felt personal. It actually hurt!

And I also really love this line: ‘the fact that adrian is still willing to approach him with empathy instead of cruelty will probably be a meaningful scene to enzo far more than switching positions ever could.’ That's exactly it! This is what would ultimately lead Enzo to let go and become a real boy again, something he probably hasn’t felt since his childhood.

As for the small nuances in Enzo's character that you mentioned, I love them! The author is a genius for placing those little breadcrumbs all over the pages. We should create a board to connect these dots, haha

But it seems you think that Enzo's on the verge of that change, while I think he's on the verge of 'wanting' that change. So Rian needs to prove that it's worth it and also that it's possible to have it. And yes, it's only possible through intimacy. So again, Rian shouldn't top, absolutely not! It’s becoming increasingly clear as we keep discussing this. He needs to bottom, and the experience should be groundbreaking for both of them. And I don't mean sexually, well, that too, but more importantly, emotionally. Enzo needs to learn to want something human, not just go hunting for gems!

I really love this story, and wow, talking with you just made it sooooooo much better! Thank you~ I know we're not gonna be disappointed. The author has already proved herself.

I get it. While Enzo has his mind games and mafia ties, Rian has his spy antics and associations with all kinds of shady organizations and individuals. Morally, Enzo's nearly black, but still Rian's grey enough to match him. They have similar heights and weights, are both well-built, and unreasonably good-looking... so, they're as equal as they get!

So despite that, or actually because of that, you and I agree that if they were to have fixed roles, it would be incredibly hot. BUT interestingly, others are calling for different dynamics because of those very reasons. People want them to switch because they have the greatest potential as a vers couple and can give the real ones a voice. Some want Enzo to be bottom because, despite their equality, he is eventually the prettier one. Some want Rian to top just because of the way they remember him from Red Candy, but some want it for a better equal standing, as it felt in the beginning of the story, probably because it feels like Rian has lost some footing after the story gave Enzo too much power through the SA scene, and since Rian began working for him.

Eventually, they are preferences, but we have to accept what the author is gonna throw at us. Personally, I thought there wouldn't be a second rape scene because I thought the first time got out of hand, and if Enzo wants something more, then he wouldn't, yet the story just revealed that he doesn't even expect much for himself as a human being, let alone imagining a future with a partner.

This story's really interesting and complicated. So, even if it doesn't check all my preferences, I still feel very much satisfied. Let's not stress. It's gonna be fun either way~

Kaya-chan explaining what I was trying to to say in the most natural and cool way possible, Thank you (〒﹏〒)

Oh, thank you!
It's really nice talking about this story, so I love all these chats ε=ε=(ノ≧∇≦)ノ

sorry T_T new chapters release every 2 months, the next one is coming out in 3 weeks

WAIT BABY IM SORRY, MY BAD ITS NOT UR FAULT