toastyBooksAndTea's Topics (1293)

there's not any more fetishizing pain and suffering in songhyel's works than what you'll find in just about any other story featuring characters overcoming problems, obstacles, and conflicts both internal and external. the pain and self-destructive behaviors are shown so that the pleasures, comforts, and eventual turn towards self-preservation and choosing life have a stronger impact through contrast. seeing the depth of the hole intensifies the satisfaction of seeing a character climb out of it. or seeing the height of a mountain intensifies the satisfaction of reaching its peak.

what makes the "sense of profoundness" unwarranted? many stories are fake deep, but I wouldn't count songhyel's among them. there's too much depth and nuance for that.

I'm also uncertain and unsure why songhyel's stories feature these topics so heavily, but saying that they're doing the same thing as harada but with a cloak of plausible deniability ignores the differences in what they focus on and how they approach those topics. I'd say that songhyel is more comparable to asada nemui, and even then I think songhyel has a more positive or constructive outlook and approach.

Asada Nemui also doesn’t try to manipulate the audience to feel a certain way or simply fetishizes or takes so srsly the absurd concept or story they’ve come up with. Nemui always has a healthy dose of humour and skepticism in the story that makes its contrived and ridiculous situations more honest, fun, and relatable in its exploration of pain and power dynamics. They doesn’t try to fool the reader into acting like the story is not fetishizing parts of the situation, it’s not afraid to go there and then it still honestly reflects on the nuance.

most, if not all stories involve some manipulation of how the audience thinks and feels about its events and characters. if you feel a certain way because of what is presented in the story, maybe the creator is just effectively using storytelling strategies. some creators are good at creating an atmosphere or emotional vibe, but there isn't much substance to it when you reflect on it, whereas others reward reflection and deeper thought which strengthens that emotional impact. your original comment implies that you think songhyel's stories fit the former category, but your explanation for that is rather shallow.

if you don't like what songhyel writes, or find their stories suspicious because of what they feature, that's your prerogative. i wouldn't have responded argumentatively to a statement of opinion that you didn't like this story, or others by them, for subjective reasons. i'm arguing here to dispute the claim that songhyel fetishizes pain and self-destruction in the sexual sense, (or romanticizes it, like you said elsewhere) and is hiding or being dishonest in some way about their intentions or interest in creating what they do. all we have is speculation, and what is in the stories themselves to base any conclusions on since there aren't any creator's notes or interviews with the creator to speak for themself. their stories aren't framed or executed in the same way as others that feature or focus on sexual assault, rape, and abuse, in a fetishized or romanticized way, so it's a misapplication of the terms "fetishization" and "romanticization" to use them to describe their stories as a whole. the focus, themes and conclusions (for the completed ones) of their stories are just too different! i could possibly agree that songhyel has a nonsexual fetish, or strong fixation on these topics, but claims beyond that would require more evidence to support them for me to agree.

considering that they also have works with fantastical elements (sleeping dead), including an omegaverse setting (takatora and the omegas), and works that are also contrived to explore the suffering and anguish of the characters (multiple, but classmate sticks out on this) it sounds like you just like asada nemui's stories more in terms of content and style, which is a matter of taste/personal preference and not why i'm objecting to your comment. i've liked their stories, too.

and really, I don't know why their stories have the focus that they do, so it very well could be a stealthy way of presenting fucked-up bullshit. I'm wary and have my concerns about that, too. but would there really be a need for subterfuge or to hide those intentions? many creators are doing it openly! it's not something that generates problems, especially if a creator has been doing it since their debut
arguably, songhyel would be more popular doing what's trendy/common and going all-in on straightforwardly presenting rape and abuse for sexual gratification and simple, cheap drama like harada and many other manhwa creators do, so songhyel not doing that in favor of what they have done and are currently doing should count for something in showing that they're not interested in merely showing shocking and depressing situations. they might actually be for the arts and not the charts...

And why would the author explicitly say “I am fetishizing pain and self destruction”? Is that the only way you could conceive that this is their intention? That they would have to explicitly say it? You’re going with the “we don’t know what’s in their heart” argument? Of course this is my opinion, this is just my analysis. You seem to have a different view and that’s fine. Are you saying a shounen romance that is clearly just the Madonna whore complex doesn’t indicate the author is misogynistic unless they explicitly say so? The author will deny this but it’s clear! That’s what analysing a text is man! But yeah it’s still just my opinion and analysis, it’s not objective fact.

what is "this point"? new world order?
"How can you say you want to explore the effects of trauma and abuse while depicting material that is essentially pornographic? Material that ppl likely get off to because it is made for ppl to get off to?"
some sex isn't sexy.
is it meant for people to get off to, though? people treat it as such because of existing cultural/social norms, but even when some things like naked bodies are sexualized, they're not automatically "sexy" or sexually gratifying by default aside from the
nothing in any given story exists outside of the creator choosing to include it, so everything is gratuitous. we can talk about how those choices serve the story the creator set out to make - talk about what the creator tried to say, how effective they were in saying it, interpretations, and (my favorite) connections beyond the story itself. you're asking worthwhile questions
in the hands of most other bl creators, it's meant to titillate and arouse

I'm trying to focus on the stories themselves because there is no creator input to suggest, confirm or deny anything, not using "we don't know what's in their heart" as an excuse. I'm aware that creators often won't be fully aware or admit to things they put in their works, that's what critical textual analysis is for. that's why I've been asking you for more detail about why you came to your conclusions and was hoping that you would point out details, moments, or instances in these stories that gave you the impression that you described as fetishizing and romanticizing things, because I wanted to know where you were coming from, and perhaps to compare/contrast what we're each picking up on. there's some subjectivity to interpretation, yes, but we can still identify specific things to base those interpretations on. I have my blind spots, too, so if I'm missing things, I want to find out what I missed! I'm also wary about these kinds of stories, generally, but I consider songhyel to be a rare creator for what they're doing within that niche, but I don't want to let admiration or past approval lull me into a false sense of security. so I was interested in what you had to say about it even with my disagreement.

In the absence of any specifics for what you said, all I can say is what I've been saying repeatedly this whole time - that the character arcs and conclusions in songhyel's stories so far suggest that they're interested in unflinching portrayals of sexual violence and trauma in all their messiness to show what characters experienced and how they try, fail, and eventually come to terms with and move past those experiences. it's not just that there are good/positive/hopeful endings for the completed stories, but also the journeys shown to getting there, fraught and full of setbacks as they were. I don't get the sense of "this is jerk-off material" from their presentation in the literal or emotional sense that I get from stories like, for example, sadistic beauty (the infamous side stories) or limited run, among many others in BL. the definitions of fetishization and romanticization that I'm aware of didn't seem applicable to songhyel's stories, to my knowledge, so I disputed what you said, but I wanted to know more, because I'm curious.

oops, ignore like, half of this reply. ⁄(⁄ ⁄·⁄ω⁄·⁄ ⁄)⁄
it should have started from "I'm trying to focus on...".
that got long, but I was basically just asking for more details and evidence to support your claims and analysis, as one does in literary/textual analysis.

Idk what it is to you but you can simply scroll back in the comment section and align it with the explicit chapters where the character is degrading himself sexually and see the comments. It’s received by the majority as something to get off to. You can look at Baby Reindeer for an example of art about the male response to trauma and sexual abuse and the self destructive effects to self to see how to handle this topic without fetishizing it. It also has explicit material but it’s treated in a grave manner with a layer of humour and self reflection. It is not shown as “hot.” Baby Reindeer is also based on the male writer’s true personal experience and the majority of the audience did not receive those scenes as something to get off to and comment and say “wow this was so hot, I feel so bad for him but this is so hot.” And this is not the audience’s fault, this pain and sexual self destruction was very detailed, the pleasure mixed with self loathing was and the act itself is nothing less than pornographic on purpose.

do you have any more info on that title you mentioned, so I can look it up? or a link?

It’s a netflix show called Baby Reindeer, it’s based on a one man show that’s based on the writer/author’s personal experience.

IKR???? It almost feels like it’s one of the authors fantasy… some kind of twisted savior complex. It’s honestly disgusting when you think about it psychologically.

The snuggling trope is pretty unique, the plot theme is great but I also low-key somewhat agree to you, Youngwon forgave her too easily... I was so hyped when I saw colder and firmer youngwon desparate to bury Seungji, I wanted that rivalry to stay for more longer...

Idk but whenever there's unrequited love mentioned in synopsis I can't help but laugh reading those so called unrequited love shit stories. Only some were which genuinely felt like unrequited love stories. And most of the straight unrequited love stories just felt like joke to me

Trueee, a lot of them fall under some type of miscommunication trope and then a lot of them fall into the “they were aware that the other person has feelings for them but they don’t reciprocate the feelings so they just kinda lead them on” trope

Istg...she has psychological issues...

Real talk cuz im getting confused here