season 4 of hannibal's Topics (92)

Zebra unicorn

don't forget giraffe vampire

Salamander goblin

I would seriously watch/read anything about vampire giraffe.

I agree

Adam is smart. He will never throw sway those shoes because it will always remind Yuriy of his place. For as long as Yuriy thinks he is dirty and worthless, Yuriy will believe that only Adam will only love him (and even then, Yuriy feels guilty that Adam should love such a debased creature).

It is also a reminder of how successful they used to be and a silent way of Adam to blame Yuriy not only for Adam's injury but also for his no longer a A Class designer.

The more Adam is able to reinforce how utterly indebted and worthless Yuriy is, the more Yuriy will stay with him. He is a master manipulator, this Adam.

And Yuriy is suffering from Stockholm syndrome + Survivor's Guilt, which is Everyday being reinforced like a litany by Adam through both deeds and words.

I got the impression wearing them was Yuriy's idea...

Good explanation, tho I think there is some misunderstanding going on here. Adam was not the one who wants to keep the shoes, it's Yuriy. Yuriy is the one deciding to keep those heels.
Remember when Adam said " My poor Yuriy, he can no longer be satisfied with normal pleasure" and "you are saying that but you are more aroused than usual" ? They are pretty obvious hints that those red heels turn Yuriy on, making his body more sensitive and raising his sexual desire.
Although Yuriy mayy have Stockholm, but it was never Adam's intention to begin with. He never said anything about Yuriy being worthless and dirty. In page 9, he even said "..you are the most beautiful thing in the world".
.
But I do believe Adam should have at least told Yuriy it was not his fault and he was not dirty. At least he should do that :/

This is what I meant by Adam being passively aggressively keeping Yuriy "tied" to him.
1. Yuriy wanted to keep the shoes, Adam makes no move to dissuade him relaizing that it is a convenient way to keep Yuriy with him. He could've thrown it away, or say "why keep
something that reminds us of the past, we are moving forward" etc

2. Yuriy say he is dirty, Adam says you are beautiful but he stops short at No You are Not Dirty None of those things are your fault. So Adam is responding to Statement A with a Unrelated NonStatement, that does not really address the main issue. This is called "deliberately missing the point"

It's like when a wife asked the husband "What do you think of this dress". husband: "well you look pretty anyway" Sounds okay on the surface but he's actually dodging

Yuriy has issues, but Adam deliberately does not address them conveniently exacerbating and enabling Yuriy to reinforce his inferiority complex, stockholm syndrome and survivor's guilt.

Exactly. Just like any abuser "you did this to yourself", "you want't this", "look what you've made me do"

"he can easily leave if he wants to..."

all textbook mindfuck abuser

WTF?
Why does it have to be about abuse or a mind fuck?
Can't Yuriy just enjoy wearing them during sex?
What makes you think it has to be a power trip?
Adam clearly cares about Yuriy. Actually, he seems to be the only person who truly did.
The fact that Yuriy wears heels during sex doesn't have to be about degradation or domination, so why are you jumping all over me like I'm victim blaming?

I don't even see Yuriy as a victim in the relationship because they seem to be in a healthy loving relationship, which means neither one is a victim.

Adam doesn't need to "tied" Yuriy to him. In the beginning, Yuriy has already loved him so much and even sacrificed his body and soul for the sake of Adam's career and Albakin. Adam didn't do anything to tie Yuriy down at first, when there are so many choices of men for him. So why does he have to do it now? When they are living in such a peaceful and serene place? It wouldn't make much sense that way.
It would make sense if they are living in the city and working as waitors or bartenders for a club,, but they don't.Sorry but I think you are over-analyzing the plot.

Ahem. Yuri has issues since the very beginning of the manga. Not everyone wants to be saved. I for one wants the life Yuri has. Degraded, sold out to the highest bidder, I got really turned on by that. I wish I have an Adam in my life to sell me out and then make sweet love to my filthy body in the end.

Not everyone needs an SJW to save them, Tyvm. If you're ticked off by this story, then I think Ogawa Chise or Harada is not your mangaka. Next time, stay away from their mangas and you'll be okay. Ciao!

I think the major flaw in the argument is the assumption of motive, for which there is little evidence.

Your point 1 would be valid if there was evidence that Adam's motive was to control Yuriy and prevent him from leaving, but it could just as well be enabling due to guilt. The way it's presented in Ch.4, Adam wants to "lift he cures [he] cast on [Yuriy], goes after Yuriy and sacrifices himself to release Yuriy from a life of selling himself and body mutilation via shoes. Keeping the shoes isn't healthy, but there's just as much reason to think that Adam doesn't dissuade Yuriy because he thinks that if Yuriy wants to keep them, then he owes it to Yuriy to let him do what he wants. Now that's not healthy either, but the motive isn't negative.

Point 2 could be valid, but assumes the motive is to dodge the question and also assumes that Yuriy had absolutely no agency in the situation (which is itself debatable, and may be bored enough right now to argue pointlessly on the internet, but not THAT bored).

So, like I said, Adam does seem to be enabling him at least to some extent, but I don't think that there is enough evidence presented by the author to show that the relationship dynamics are too complicated to simply say that Adam is an enabler because of his desire to control. Also, Yuriy doesn't have Stockholm syndrome. That would mean that Adam was his captor and that Yuriy developed his feelings for Adam to cope with the treatment he was receiving, but Yuriy developed his feelings prior to forming their relationship. And if you're going to argue Stockholm syndrome for Yuriy, wouldn't you also have to acknowledge that Adam developed Lima syndrome in return?
Peace ! ^_^

I am saving this thread. The analyses is damn on point. Nice argument. I guess what the last chapter is saying is that such sex life exist. It is not definitely normal and it doesn't look healthy but it is for them. They have their own standards and no other people can tell them that it's wrong because they are happy doing what they wanna do and they are not harming/involving other people outside their kink. Kinda like BDSM, especially the extreme ones. Their kink is completely CONSENSUAL.

hey guys, thank you for the nice, clean debate. anyway, my comment is was purely opinion and i wasn't really looking too deep into any aspects of their sex life. now, regarding actual events in the story, having yuriy wear heels again is certainly not the healthiest, or kindest form of affection(?), but it is depicted as a consensual act between them, and that OK. and like the person above mentions, they aren't involving anyone other than themselves. the heels make it so yuriy will never forget his past mistakes and the fact that he unintentionally hurt adam, while adam himself seems to enjoy reminding him of those things. to adam, yuriy will always be the yuriy who wears heels. when he threatened to tell emma about the past, it was to work up yuriy. he himself explicitly states that he would be the only person to see yuriy debauched and in heels again. it can be seen as cruel, but no one here believes their relationship is the epitome of healthy.

The thing is with my favorite mangakas is that they make use of VISUAL CUES properly to use minimal words as possible. The downside to this is that readers may have different interpretation from what the author would want to convey.

"Adam seems to enjoys reminding him of those things" - to me sounds off since in this page: http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/red_theatre/uu/tr_chapter-6/pg-8/
Notice Adam's expression as he rams into Yuriy after he says that he is shameful and dirty, I interpret that he tries his best to satisfy Yuriy's sexual needs despite being a handicap, knowing that it was all his fault, thus he is actually taking responsibility of his actions. Fulfilling Yuriy's sexual desires is also in a way reinforcing what he says that Yuriy is beautiful, without negating Yuriy's negativeness through words. Also, as evidence, Adam has recognized what he has done wrong and let Yuriy free from the industry in exchange for his fame and arm, in the previous chapters.

"Threatened to tell Emma" - I believe that's just to tease Yuriy since Adam finds Yuriy cute when upset, which to me is simply normal conversation. If he truly "threatened" Yuriy and he truly wanted Emma to know or simply he doesn't care about the kid finding out about the shoes, he wouldn't be upset or flustered when Emma asked about the shoes, but he was. Meaning he truly cared and Ogawa showed that through images, not words.

"when he threatened to tell emma about the past, it was [only] to work up [get him flustered] yuriy."

also, i do believe adam does indeed like the aspect of control he has over yuriy, but i agree that he probably feels guilt by the way that he has to be the one to remind yuriy (and be reminded himself) to bring him pleasure.

I guess I was ticked off with the word "threatened" because it wasn't serious at all.

They've made a "healthy" set up for themselves, I mean when you compare it from their previous situation. To me, of course my concern is always with Yuriy and I guess what he always wanted was Adam's full attention to him, which Yuriy now has and that's what makes him happy, so I'm happy for them.

yeah i mean, as of the story yuriy is now at the highest point in his life and he deserves the happiness he has found. and i understand that what they have is effective, so we can only hope that the calm [before the storm lol] they have found works for them for the rest of their lives together.

To me the only thing that can destroy their happiness is if someone from the fashion or shoe industry tries to pull them back in and revive that hell they were in before. If anyone finds out about their kink or when Emma finally figures it all out, it won't matter, they've been through worse. So, sorry but I really couldn't understand that "storm" you are insinuating.
I see their kink will either die with them or they grow out of it, but nonetheless they did it because that's what they are comfortable with, what their bodies and minds crave for or feeds on, what keeps them sane and most importantly, what makes them happy.

it was a joke, friend. anyway, yuriy has always been his own worse enemy, so even if the kink eventually does him more harm than good, adam will be there to break his fall, and perhaps vice versa. and this is what i've been getting at. they've both seen the other at their worst and they understand each other's boundaries. so, while i stand by my opinion on the act being somewhat cruel, in the end, their definition of happiness is their own brand. it may not be completely healthy on a larger scale, but this, above all else, is fiction, and a beautiful, tragic, nitty gritty, 5 (in my opinion) star story. i'm reminded of a line from hakespeare's sonnet No Fear, but the whole thing is spot on.

My love is as a fever,
longing still
For that which longer
nurseth the disease

Exactly.

No one is saying they do. So I don't know why people say it's the 'SJW's' that overreact.

**Push** .. there, I just pushed you and I'm jumping right after you because this was the most romantic, cute shit eeeeever! I love them so much! He's just beyond the perfect seme, a real dream and Ai just too too too cute! (づ￣ ³￣)づ

well... it's not about it his fault that he didn't foresee rhat he'll be sexually harassed for his clothing. the thing is, if ur already uncomfortable about it on the first place what should have been a normal course of action then?? yea he did the dance, the dress up as a favor for the seniors but all throught out even before that he was already uncomfortable about it but still did so as a 'favor'... but if the favor is alreesdy wouldn't u do what to do to avoid the thing that's already making u uncomfortable??? and who the heck is saying that he is afraid that he is scared to stand up against his sunbae bcoz it might escalate to something worse? what i mean in my post as one of those shitty op ur saying is that I don't care if it gets worse. I'll step my foot forward if i am being wronged or disrespected. 'it's u, not min gyeom` well, duh, that's exactly why I am saying I can't feel for him bcoz he doesn't make sense to me.

if the favor is already over*

if u thing i'm disrespecting u by calling out your ignorance, girl u have a lot to learn. life's gonna come after u much worse than i did lmao. listen. yes, he was already uncomfortable by the favor. he could have turned them down, but he didn't. it's not like he was dragged there against his will, not quoting or anything, nope. but anyway, he went with it. ok. fine. now he's in a situation he could have avoided. sure. i get it. he was sexually harassed bc he couldn't say no. fucking sue him. and idk i'm just throwing ideas out there but there's a reason min gyeom only imagined taking a stand for himself. in 58.10, he said, "i don't know what the atmosphere would have been like," in relation to him had he said something back at the party. if every person in the world could stand up for themselves, do u honestly think the answer will always be a simple and sweet apology? min gyeom knows this and he's a fucking fictional character.

Ummm... His behaviour and lack of any straightforward action can be attributed to their society and how the characters have been developed keeping in mind their values. Outright declining or refuting your seniors, even if by a year is considered very bad and does cause unnecessary strain on someone's (in this case Min Gyeom) life influencing and besides, he just started his university life, it wouldn't do well to get on the wrong side of people who have a way of influencing your student drastically (Seniors help with research groups, clubs, getting acquainted with the correct staff members, tips and notes, etc.) And had Min Gyeom did what he wanted to do, the consequences would've been worse (depending on the form of backlash). Lastly, there is a reason why characters behave in a certain manner in any plot, that is to keep it going... Just saying...

right but idk why ur telling me this? i'm not the one who said he could have turned them down. i haven't said anything about his character, other than stating the facts that we read in the last chapter. like, u sort of just said the same thing i did wherein it's not his fault he ended up in the situation???

Sorry, it was for the other person, using it on mobile makes it hard for me to get the comments part right. Sorry once again.

np sis, it's all good.

I "love" how people like to blame the victims of Sexual harassment, instead the ones who actually understand and attack the one's who did the harassment.
that just show how people, even today still think that the victims are the one's at feult. even if it's not true at all!!
and yeas, just cause he change his clothes, still don't give them the right to harass him!! they had no right to touch or to treat him like they did!
so I agree with you on this one XD it sad that how people still think. it more easy for them to blame the victim for some reason.

well if every person can stand up for themselves wouldn't it result to a less crime society? it sounds so idealistic but the thing i'm not saying the answer will be a simple and sweet apology... who the heck believes that. the thing is, if people can stand up for themselves, and put the wrond doers in their place then it will become a normative theory that lesser criminal offense could also happen.

i didn't actually feel disrespected that u are actually implying of my ignorance... the thing is u said "shitty person". ignorance and shitty doesn't mean the same at all.

anyway, i just hope that ur not actually thinking that things should happen to me to get ur point. hopefully ur not that kind of person. nit sure what made me think of that but it just did...

ur not disrespecting my ignorance as u call it which i admit because i'm not perfectly genius.. what u said comes out as totally disrespecti my whole being.

Hmmn.... Before asking people to educate themselves you should educate yourself first because whether a person's opinion is wrong or right you shouldn't bellitle them...you were offended but then you try to comeback it with more offense...people are so into making an enemy out of themselves by expressing their opinions without fully understanding its consequences....

Everyone here are just overwhelmed by how Min Gyeom decided not to do anything about that bastard someone who also called him MIN GAY i mean thats entirely rude and over the line right? Thats more than disrespectful so you can't stop having people frustrated about Min Gyeom's behaviour because the readers would want their MC to get better and stop allowing people take advantage of Him (Min Gyeom) and the readers themselves have learned when and how to stand up for themselves hence also hoped to see Min Gyeom doin that (but he didn't) :( .. Readers like to relate and connect themself with the character because its much more real in that way..
I don't even thik Min Gyeom is a fictional character because no one can deny how in real life there are people like Min Gyeom

really? u think it's someone's fault whether or not they allow themselves to be sexually harassed is an opinion? do not tell me to educated myself. ignorance and bigotry does NOT deserve the cover of self expression. i will call out and destroy ANYONE who questions bullying and sexual harassment. i don't care if it's fiction bc people's beliefs and values aren't. don't play with me.

um min gyeom is in fact fiction, and the things happening to him aren't real. i won't say his current situation doesn't reflect real life issues, because they do. but he does not exist, therefore he does not really hurt. and another thing, min gyeom was actually having lunch with the boy who called him min gay, so idk if that means something. listen, i'm not faulting the people who want min to have a perfect happy go lucky sprinkles with whipped cream and a cherry on top life, because ideally, that would be nice. but when people blame him for something he couldn't control, that's where i drew my fictional line.

if your whole being is as shitty as that opinion, i never wanna meet u. ignorance and shitty people don't define as the same thing, but more often than not they go hand in hand. but the great thing about those two things, is that they can be cured with a little education. can we talk about rape for a second? if everyone in the world could stand up for themselves without consequence, that would be the ideal society. but, please, just listen? could you imagine a woman living in africa or papua new guinea or india or afghanistan (in which rape is legal in the last two countries) standing up for themselves? do you think they will be applauded? perhaps. if they survive. there are even rituals in afghanistan in which make women, or anyone, who report rape charged with adultery, or even killed. in the usa, sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under reported violent crime. now before u go, oh, but this is south korea, and min is a man, and he wasn't even in danger of being raped, or in danger at all (which could be a matter of debate). that's not my point. bringing up rape is not my point. what i'm getting at is if rape, or domestic violence, or even just verbal bullying could be one of those consequences of standing up for yourself, you ask why people don't do it more? min was already being verbally harassed, and he hadn't said a word out loud about how he didn't like it. he was already experiencing one of those possible consequences without having done anything. he is timid, and full of anxiety and self doubt. could he have said something, even had he not been afraid of the outcome?

u go girl. and to answer your question, i once read a psychology article on the art of victim blaming. it went something along the lines of "holding victims responsible for their misfortune is partially a way to avoid admitting that something just as unthinkable could happen to you." how no one is safe. and the article is right, but it doesn't hold account to know victim blaming is a horrible and disgusting thing to do regardless.

You misunderstood what I've stated entirely hahahahahaha XD. First nowhere in my response says "it's someone's fault whether or not they allow themselves to be sexually harassed" or in other words there is nowhere I am playing the blame game but rather just stating the facts that have happened in the story, second If you don't want someone saying to you that you should educate yourself then DON'T ASK OR WHATEVER Other PEOPLE TO DO THE SAME THING IF YOU, Yourself don't even want do it, (What you do to people is how other people will treat you) Thirdly I don't even Question bullying and sexual Harassment?! (don't Just go Assume some unfounded Things!) and how am I even playing you? I don't have the right to do that to you nor I have no reason or motive to do that to you! ? Its your right to fight what you believe in but that doesn't mean what other's belief have to be the same thing as you because just like you they have their own rights on what they believed in. Another thing is that just as how Min Gyeom cannot control certain things You CAN'T also Control people into stopping them to blame Min Gyeom for his lackings because that is also out of your line! and the most important thing is that UNDERSTANDING is much deeper and important than KNOWLEDGE. You may know a lot of things but you don't even try understand hence misunderstood me.

from what i understand, you were in fact implying that what the other person said about it being someone's fault they're sexually harassed is an opinion, not that it was yours. i pointed out that it's not an opinion, no where did i say it was your belief. and again, i wasn't talking about you. the person questioning bullying and harassment wasn't you, but the person you are trying, and failing, to defend. and idk what ur talking abt me tryna control these people? i never once tried. what i was doing was protecting min gyeom and any other person who's experienced sexual harassment and bullying by educating people into knowing that it's never the victim's fault. it's not control. it's basic human right and basic ethics. & uh idk if u just said it in the heat of the moment but you can't understand without knowledge lol. knowledge and understanding are synonyms.

Yeeesss. I agree with you all the way on this.
The people who sexually harassed him are at fault. No matter the gender it's still sexual harassment.
Glad someone pointed this out :)

Hey girrl I agree with your opinions on victim blaming and all. But BITCH get your fucking facts right coz rape IS NOT legal in India. God the fact that you just throw arround random made up facts without even checking twice shows how IGNORANT, STUPID and INSENSITIVE you are.

i should have been more specific, but there's a right and wrong way to correct someone, perhaps you should also check your facts before calling someone ignorant, stupid, and insensitive. marital rape was actually not classified as an offence before being "outlawed" in 2006, but it's actually more of way to "persuade or coerce non- offending third parties to take responsibility and action to prevent or end criminal or nuisance behavior".

You've fallen into my trap Go Siwon Muwahahahaha

Shokuji o arigatōgozaimashita

Nice job; thanks for sharing!! (=・ω・=)