Gege ass propaganda's Topics (21)

GOSHHH ILY FOR EXPRESSING SOMETHING THAT HAD BEEN NAGGING AT ME FOR SO LONG- the restrictions on queer representation is just sad to look at. Not just in this work, though, in so many other media seeing dynamics left unexplored solely because of the stigma attached to queer folks is really a big tragedy not only for the characters themselves (being unable to fully express themselves) but also for the readers and the author. This supression is at least now coming to surface but just like you I really wished that we could've gotten what Mokumokuren fully envisioned with this manga, all unfiltered. And again, we're so used to seeing such relationships be left 'open-ended' (which does have it's own merits) but it'd be nice to get something... established for once. I hope I live to see a time where its normalised for queer people in genuine stories that explore their identity and prefrences while also acknowledging that their label isn't all there is to them. Something like that would be nice to see in other genres other than romance-driven. Love tshd to bits and pieces but i really wished the direction was nudged in a slight different situation.

AAH and ily for your thoughtful reply. I agree with everything you wrote. There are other attempts to break the mold in various works, but there's still a long way to go. I believe we're getting there.

And yes!! Let's continue to give those wonderful stories lots of love and talk about them, and hope it encourages more authors to do their queer characters and their own visions justice. (Obviously, the publishers need to see that it isn't black or white either, and that the homophobic straight man isn't the main consumer).

Right!! Aside from the homophobes, there's an overwhelming support of queers and allies that would EAT UP good representation. We literally stopped Love Bullet from cancellation . Publishers (ESPECIALLY THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR SHOUNENS) can't keep getting away with trying to "accomodate" as many demographics as possible by keeping things tame (i.e., queerbait) and letting dynamics die as bromance all the damn time (sasunaru i mourn you everyday). They're gonna have to pick a side and explore dynamics outside the heteronormative norm because its ABOUT DAMN TIME.

REAL. I'll never forgive Kishimoto for his ass romance decisions. Owari no Seraph is another prime example of completely trashing your own work by creating two very queer-coded characters and never letting them be together.

This is exactly why magazines with creative works shouldn't be divided by such clear-cut demographics. Japanese fans will always write the most ignorant comments online if they never get in touch with ANY queer characters (like for TSHD, many guys would spam comments such as "I would've never started this had I known it was BL" or "This isn't horror, this is BL"). This doesn't happen as much in the English community.
Maybe you know Blue Flag—a shounen jump series with a love triangle including queer characters (+ one more side character). It was painfully obvious that the author had avoid certain scenes they most def wanted to draw. At least they were a little more free in the very last chapter, but the comments of a few male Japanese fans were very similar to TSHD... like, did they read the story with closed eyes? That kind of fragility in their own sexuality can only be eliminated if they understand that stories aren't either/or, that not everything has to appeal to them (within a story or just the story itself), and that queer characters exist outside of romance and smut focused works.

YOU KNOW ABOUT ONS TOO? This is such a sensitive topic for me I was a huge fan of it and even bought the volume 22 where Mika confesses (it is what it is) to yuu. I was, and still AM a firm believer of mikayuu and anyone with eyes and a smidge of reading comprehension can figure out that whatever they had was beyond our traditional definition of brotherhood. They are family for sure and their romantic spark does nothing to diminish this connection. IF it was confirmed then that would've only served to strengthen their bond. Bypassing that unsaid line would've done wonders for their dynamic and character, and could've given way to so many new plot devices to work towards. And in response to people saying that ONS isn't romance-driven...fyi intense emotional bonds IS the prominent theme of ONS. Studies in biological drive say that romantic love is second only to parental love. The potency of the affection they hold for one another can only be described as love derived from romantic pining. Mikayuu serve as the main characters of ONS and delving into their dynamic and allowing them to be freed from the restrictions of our real world (becase lets be honest NO ONE in ONS would bat an eye to mikayuu becoming a thing) would only help fill in the gap that many shounen have-- and that is, shallow main character depth. It's disappointing. The teasing was left as something hanging in the air in an unsaid bundle of 'i love you's. Im still recovering from the butchering Takaya Kagami has done to his characters...

And 100% with you on your second take. Despite mainstream BL having been popularized by the influx of doujinshi by mangakas, a huge chunk Japan is still woefull ignorant and loud in their opinion disregarding homosexuality. And the pressure to cater to the likes of the majority leads to mangakas conceding to change their creative direction towards their own stories. Frankly, Naoya from JJK getting 5th place in weekly shonen jump popularity poll in Japan says enough about how progressive their fandom spaces are.

I've never read Blue Flag (I'll go read it as soon as I'm done writing) but I've heard a lot about it due to it's queer inclusion! But alas it IS again very painful to see people preach their heterosexual mindset onto others. I understand that this conditioning is hard to get out of but being vocal on your hate to a work, solely because it touches queer subjects is a very, VERY stupid approach. Usually what'd they do is steer clear of topics they don't prefer but hating on queerness is such a common practice that they bandwagon on this hate truck, resulting in the cancellation or restrictions in such works. And as you said, this fragility NEEDS to be removed but unfortunately the people practicing this aren't even aware of their shortcomings and hence do nothing to work towards broadening their worldviews. Lack of empathy on a mass scale is scary but nobody wants to acknowledge their own faults.

[P.S: IM SO SORRY FOR THE LATE REPLY AND LONG YAP...If there's an error here forgive me it's almost 4am ╥﹏╥]

Real. I'm crossing my fingers this end with Yuu & Mika being together in heaven or whatever while Shanao and others build human society the way it used too while monologuing about the duo being happy together.

Ngl this manhwa is definitely not a wholesome fairytale world, and the MCs aren't 100% green flags like angels straight out of a fairytale either. But I’d still consider them green flags overall because… they’re just normal people. They go through trauma, mental health issues, stress, and all kinds of ups and downs, just like real people do. They’re not serial killers, drug addicts, gang members, or abusers. They’re ordinary people dealing with life, which automatically puts them on the green flag side.

Also, where tf did the bottom sexually assault the top in ch60? Bestie, I know manhwas these days are full of SA and we all know "no means no"... but that doesn't mean what happened between them here was rape! The top didn't even mind having sex, he was hesitant because of what happened before, and he was worried the bottom might still be acting impulsively or out of anger... he wasn't literally rejecting the sex to the point where you can brand it as rape.
SA is already a huge issue in manhwas, and it absolutely deserves to be called out when it happens, but we also need to stop labeling every single moment of hesitation or "stop" in a relationship as sexual assault.

Look, I'm definitely not against any of those portrayals in fiction, I'm totally fine with toxicity as long as it's advertised as such, but I went into this story after reading they're green, which even you agree they're not a 100% (and I argue Seo-an isn't at all). Being that controlling, going through your partner's phone, thinking about how you want to claim them instead of wanting the best for them isn't wholesome or green. I don't mind him starting out like this and/or changing and becoming a better person, but he didn't start out like this and I, personally, draw the line at unnecessary rape.

Don't talk me down like that, I wasn't personally attacking you or anyone else. Again, this scene is totally fine im fiction as long as people call it what it is—rape. I also don't believe Seo-an's completely irredeemable, but I really didn't except a scene like that after several comments and him behaving differently in season 1.
Woo-won said "stop," "wait" etc. several times until he finally yells "that's enough" and forcibly pins Seo-an down. How is that not assault? Because he got a boner? Because he tried to enjoy it in between? He also said it hurts (for the first time!) and that he doesn't want to hurt Seo-an, but Seo-an totally dismissed him, asking him several times if "this is what he wants" and not receiving a reply! If your friend tells you this happens to them irl, even stating that they knew the other person did it out of anger, would you say "that happens sometimes, I know you were just hesitant."
??

This is nothing like a bashful "stop" where both partners know it's not serious... Seo-an even acknowledges it as rape. In chapter 62, he says "I forced you last night. I'm sorry." Woo-won doesn't deny it, instead asking "you're sorry? ... then can you do me a favor?" So he feels the same, but accepts the apology. Don't know why we need to argue about this just because there are many worse examples in BL.

Look, I’m honestly not saying Seo-an is some perfect, supportive partner who handles everything in a healthy way to help his man. But reducing his whole role to just being a bad partner is unfair too! Yeah, he’s possessive, and I didn't like it either when he swiped Woo-won’s phone behind his back to check fan messages (after some random girl encounter). But on the flip side, he helped him through so many of his crises. He tried over and over to help him move forward in life, find better job opportunities, and lighten the load on his mind and heart. He tried to give him space to think about his future independently while still helping him out with suggestions and dropping solid job opportunities that suited him. Plus, he’s a super good listener!
Bestie, every partner has flaws…the point is just that those flaws shouldn't be completely toxic. And at the end of the day, do the red flags outweigh the green flags, or vice versa? Seo-an’s pros definitely outweigh his cons (that might just be my personal take and people might disagree, but it seems like that's how the MC sees it too).

Also, I have no clue how I gave off the vibe that I was talking down to you? Was it because I said "tf"? We’re just discussing things, not trying to start drama, and I'm really sorry if that's how it came across!

As for the SA point, I also apologize I honestly might have completely forgotten that scene, and what you said is refreshing my memory. Even so, idk if this can really be labeled as sexual assault in the usual sense? Like, their relationship is built on love, consent, and physical and emotional attraction... Woo-won might not have been fully comfortable and maybe wanted to stop, so it happened impulsively and with less enjoyment, but it's more like what Seo-an said: "SORRY I FORCED YOU," not "SORRY I RAPED YOU." And don't get me wrong, I’m not saying that being attracted to your partner erases the fact that forcing them is actual rape in certain specific cases—marital rape is literally a real crime... but I hope you get what I mean. He just wasn't in a comfortable headspace (he wasn't in the mood), rather than being forced in a criminal sense. Still, I could be totally wrong and I apologize for not grasping it deeply enough. Maybe the flaw is just in my perspective, and I truly hope no one ever goes through that.
Sorry for the misunderstanding!

I get what you're saying, and I also like flawed characters. I just didn't like the way the story developed his character, sidelining his social anxiety to show his other flaws that weren't introduced believably to me. It's totally fine if you like the story and see it differently, but I'm disappointed how everything turned out, and I don't think sexual assault falls under "every partner has flaws." To be fair, I empathize with Woo-won and while I don't want to read about prolonged miscommunication between them, I really do understand where he is coming from (as opposed to Seo-an). Woo-won always felt like he had to shoulder every burden for his mother, so obviously he doesn't just communicate openly and tries so hard to appear capable and unaffected by his trauma in front of Seo-an. The story really isn't bad, just does a better job at characterizing Woo-won than Seo-an imo, maybe bc of the whole "bottom is the more proactive and dominating" thing that isn't common in BLs.

No, I meant the "bestie" thing.
Yeah, I get how you don't remember the scene that well. I kinda do that in stories I love as well, it's easy to glaze over actions of characters we like. However, "forcing" is a common established euphemism for rape and sexual assault, so no wonder Seo-an uses that wording... doesn't dismiss the fact Woo-won acknowledges it in his response. You raise some points that make me see you wouldn't excuse this irl, so that's good lol, yet it stays rape anyways, super violent or not—the whole point of Woo-won letting it happen in a way is precisely because he loves Seo-an! It's fine if you argued Seo-an makes up for it (which I don't think would be possible, but it's not my relationship), or that Woo-won can excuse it, or whatever... but again, we already established that he/they're flawed, and I never said Seo-an is a pure red flag, just that he isn't green. It's a spectrum. That's all.

I totally get where you’re coming from, and I actually appreciate your perspective. I don’t think we’re really disagreeing on what happened as much as we’re interpreting the characters differently.
I never meant to imply that sexual assault is just another relationship flaw or that it should be brushed aside. If that came across in my comment, that’s on me. I was only trying to explain why I personally struggled to categorize that scene the same way while reading it, not because I think it would be acceptable in real life.
My main point has always been that I see Seo-an as a deeply flawed but ultimately human character rather than someone who’s purely defined by his worst actions. That’s why I still lean more toward calling him a “green flag with serious flaws” than a red flag, even if I completely understand why someone else would disagree.

And honestly, I agree that Woo-won was the better-written character. His trauma, motivations, and emotional struggles felt much more fleshed out. I don’t agree that Seo-an’s writing was bad I think it was more inconsistent than I expected.
So yeah, I don’t think we’ll fully agree on Seo-an, but I definitely understand why that scene changed your entire perception of him.

Thank you a lot for your time and energy

Thank you too! I'm glad we could have this conversation. I wasn't trying to spoil your enjoyment of the story.

it’s totally fine

Maybe because it was written years ago idk just a thought lmfao.

Nah, it was released from 2017-2020 and borrowed tropes and story telling from waaaay earlier than that (think Aitsu no daihonmei or Totally Captivated). It baffles be this ever got that popular in the first place.